Tech Tree

[T_F]

Maybe Elven units should progress from normal-powered and normal-priced units to expensive-but-comparatively-strong units. That way there are less Elven units (and Elven civs will likely shrink due to it being harder to defend far-flung cities), but they won't be any weaker overall. Maybe make it so that Elves should have fewer cities through bonuses somehow given to the cities of smaller Elf civs.

Attempt at more coherent rephrase: As elves approach the late-game, their units get more powerful relative to everyone else, but also more expensive. They also get bonuses for having a few cities instead of a lot, and the few cities are economically and scientifically powerful enough to balance out everybody else having bigger empires.
Maybe as an extension: Some civs (like Elves) get bonuses for having a small number of cities, others get bonuses for having a medium number, and some civs (like say Númenor) get bonuses for having a lot of cities. Maybe the bonuses increase the later it is in the game (or start later in the game), so you still get the phenomenon of Elf nations being big and then substantially shrinking.
EDIT: I have NO idea how to pull this off.

 

[Sengir]

How to make it possible... probably with civics restricted to race, traits, or UB's. For the elves it can be as simple as giving the elves trait some rampaging maintaince after X cities. There are multiple solutions to this suggestion.

That said, while I'm open to the idea of keeping the elves reduced in the number of cities, I'm not so sure about limiting other civs, apart from normal maintainance at least, not more then normally in civ (that is, organized helps to create larger empires, so leaders that have ruled large empires have a reasonable claim on that trait, also depending on what other traits they should have).

 

[xmen510]

Perhaps after Armored Cavalry we could add:

Subjugation of Fell-Beasts (For Flying Nazgul Units)

- Only researchable by Evil Civs
- Grants ability to build Fell Beasts/Nazgul Units

Alliance with Great Eagles (For Great Eagle Units)

- Only researchable by Neutral & Good Civs
- Grants ability to build Great Eagle Units

I named them that way to also show the difference in Alignment.

 

[Sengir]

The problem I have with those names (the same as for example 'Council of the Wise') is that it doesn't sound like a tech/innovation/etc. but as an action/building/project. I'm also not sure about whether a tech can grant a resource (without modifying the code that is). I like the place of the techs though.

 

[xmen510]

Check out rise of mankind. They have resource appearance on the map linked with researching certain techs.

Also, they are the same as say Horseback Riding - just named different for Flavor purposes. If someone else can come up with a better name, don't worry, it won't offend me.

On second thought:

I will edit the post. It will just say that you are now able to build those units. We were talking about removing resources as requirements for certain units anyway after all.

On third thought :

Subjugation of Fell-Beasts does fit your discription. It is an innovation like Horseback Riding (Fell Beast Riding).

Alliance with Great Eagles does as well. It is the same as Alliances.

Perhaps both types of units, limited by Alignment could become available with Alliances. Rather late in the game due to their greater strength.

Limit both to 8 Units + 1 Hero:

8 Nazgul + The Witch King.
8 Great Eagles + Gwaihir or Thorondor (From: The Hobbit).

 

[Sengir]

It's not the same for me For example Alliances is some new innovation at some point in the techtree, Alliance with Great Eagles is one specific Alliance. I think I like technames to be more global/overarching, but that's a matter of preference. We will use yours, unless someone comes up with something that fits better.

 

[Berenthor]

Techs can be limited to allignment so you can only research something depending on the alignment. This will help to avoid the problem I think. Furthermore I would say that 8 eagles is quite a lot. Especially because they did not really play a big role, at least not in the later ages. If I remember my LotR correctly there weren't that many eagles involved.

 

[xmen510]

There was a whole army of them at The Battle of Five Armies. There were quite a few at the Battle at The Black Gates at the end of the LOTR as well. They only reduced the number for the movie (CG expense and all).

 

[T_F]

Maybe you could have Alliance with the Eagles / Fell Beasts (or whatever) be one of those projects like FFH's Pact of the Nilhorn. You can limit projects by alignment too.

 

[xmen510]

You know T F. That is a good idea. Fell-Beats (and thus Flying Nazgul) could become available upon the building of a Project if you have the other prerequisits. The same with gaining the Eagles.

A very good idea there.

 

[xmen510]

Are we calling the Tech Tree finalized, or are we still discussing it. It would probably be easier for those modding to have a completed picture of what they are working with. This way they are not wasting their time on things that will get thrown out.

I realize we still have yet to assign units, bonuses, resources, etc. to them. We could start new threads for these topics.

I think we need to start specializing the threads for easier navigation. We're starting to go all over the place with our overflow of ideas. Not a bad thing, It'll just be easier with some organization for the Modders.

I could also start on some writing when we have things finalized if you want.

 

[T_F]

I think the tech tree needs to remain in discussion as long as we are discussing units, resources, wonders, etc. Everything is intertwined enough that you can't really mess with one thing without messing with the rest.

We do need to reorganize threads, yes.

 

[Sengir]

Yeah thread specialization is a bit of a mess right now.

About the Techtree. I haven't completely figured out how to add the ages as techs without making the tree ugly as hell. Will try to have it up this weekend.

 

[xmen510]

Thanks for the hard work Sengir. You are probably right T F.

 

[Sengir]

Ok, so I made a liar out of myself and went ahead today.

Spoiler :

The idea is that in order to advance to the next color you have to tech to the next age (bottom row) first. Note that not all techs of the previous era are required for advancing to the next age. I think more should be dropped and only the techs we feel really necessary for ending that era should be required.


Edit: Also, please comment on what tech you would place in what age. I held myself mostly to the list in the first post, but don't think it is set in stone.

 

[xmen510]

It looks good to me. The only problem I have is still that pesky Council of Wises thing. Is that even a word?

I'm not trying to be offensive, it just doesn't seem to make sense to me. Perhaps you could explain the tech to me and I'll get a better understanding of it.

 

[Sengir]

I haven't changed the others techs at all, just added the colours and the age-techs.

That said, I simply picked the tech from the list. I have no idea what we are going to do with it and think the name doesn't work well at all for a tech. I'll try to think of a better name/different tech at that place/drop it alltogether.

 

[Sengir]

Ok, my suggestion regarding Council of Wises: drop the tech. We have a White Council wonder allready and I don't think this tech adds anything.

 

[xmen510]

If it is causing that much of a problem for you, then I agree that it should be dropped.

 

[Sengir]

It's not so much trouble, as that I can't think of anything that would fit (I assume the tech is meant to enable The White Council, but that can be done with treaties as well). It is a dead end tech atm, so it can be dropped without a problem (and brought back in later if necessary as well).