Maniac
Apolyton Sage
Thanks.
But then what's causing the difference pre- and post-loading??
But then what's causing the difference pre- and post-loading??
Teh Flowering Counter
- Thread starter Maniac
- Start date
Ellestar
Prince
I said, my mistake 
Code itself was fine, but i put calls to it in the wrong place This time it seems to be working properly.
Anyway, uploading new dll. We don't have transport ships as i understand so i can't check if that feature works properly. But other than that, goody huts should work as you want.
Code itself was fine, but i put calls to it in the wrong place This time it seems to be working properly.Anyway, uploading new dll. We don't have transport ships as i understand so i can't check if that feature works properly. But other than that, goody huts should work as you want.
Maniac
Apolyton Sage
I said, my mistake
Woops sorry.
I had no idea what your sentence "plot was initialized twice so that misguided me about where to put my initialization" meant. 
Code itself was fine, but i put calls to it in the wrong place
Hurray! Off to add new goody results!
We do have a transport foil btw, but it's bugged: all transports are considered fighter carriers.
The lack of the SpecialCargo XML tag in ChassisInfos seems to be causing problems or something.
Maniac
Apolyton Sage
Do you think forests shouldn't be able to grow over fungus at counter levels higher than 40?
Does that mean fungus can naturally grow over terrain improvements? I thought it would be best if fungus could only destroy terrain improvements by fungal blooms caused by eco-damage. Do you disagree?
Fungus spreading from land to sea and vice versa sounds great.
First thought was "who cares?" but considering the Planetfall mapscript creates stuff like:
Code:
PH
FPyeah it might be best to allow diagonal spreading.
Hybrid Forest is a Planet-friendly feature, a symbiogenesis between fungus and genetically modified terran trees. So fungus shouldn't naturally grow over hybrid forests. However neither should hybrid forests grow over forests, or vice versa. So hybrid forests is neither nature or non-nature. Or both at the same time.
Fungus can grow over Forest
Forest can grow over Fungus
Fungus can grow over Jungle, given the right Flowering Counter of course
Hybrid Forest can't be grown over or grow over any other feature
(See "Three ecologies" thread; I'd let forest automatically change into hybrid forest or vice versa depending on the civic used - doesn't use the spread mechanic)
Ellestar
Prince
Not exactly 40 but IIRC something like that was discussed before.
Well, right now it's set to Planet Value, i guess it's next to impossible for a counter to grow that high unless we'll add some ways to increase the counter. You may set it to 200 or 1000 or something if you want, just don't set to 9999 as this value is used in Global Planet Value calculations.
Ok, but double number of checks means double growth rate so i'll halve all numeric values of feature growth to compensate.First thought was "who cares?" but considering the Planetfall mapscript creates stuff like:
where P = Peak, H = Highlands and F = fungus infested lowland...Code:PH FP
yeah it might be best to allow diagonal spreading.
Maniac
Apolyton Sage
Code:
int CvPlayer::getImprovementUpgradeRate() const
{
int iRate;
iRate = 1; // XXX
iRate *= std::max(0, (getImprovementUpgradeRateModifier() + 100));
iRate /= 100;
return iRate;
}Hmm, perhaps the following could be a good implementation?:
iRate is (100 + improvementupgraderatemodifier - 2*Flowering Counter)/100, with of course an assurance the rate is minimum zero.
Since the Terraformed Ecology civic gives +100 ImprovementUpgradeRateModifier, this would mean Farms don't upgrade at all for them at Flowering Counter level 100, and that it would be beneficial for Terraformers to get the Counter as low as possible.
slugwalk
Chieftain
I really like the idea of a flowering counter. SMAC talked about Planet's growing sentience and aggression against humanities growth, but didn't have a lot to show for it except stronger mindworms. I feel though, that the way you have it set up is almost backwards. I would think that prior to the arrival of the humans, Planet would be in relative ecological equilibrium, with the fungus acting as a major part of the ecosystem, but in balance with the other parts (ie the native generic green growth and jungle). When the humans arrive, they introduce new plants and animals, and most importantly start destroying fungus. This triggers the immune-like response of the fungus: the mind worms etc. (I can't remember which quote compared them to white blood cells). I would think then that it would be the destruction of fungus and its usurpation by terraforming that would trigger increasing response from Planet. Since the Planetmind is psionic in nature, all the sentient mental energy of the increasing human population should also trigger its growth (the Voice talked about learning from humans in the quotes, even before the beginning of the transcendence process).
In a separate argument, I think that the flowering counter and planet values are pushing the player in opposite directions, the player wants to leave any fungus they can because this raises planetvalue, making fungal blooms less common. On the other hand, the player wants to get rid of as much fungus as possible, so as to reduce the flowering counter and make the native life weaker. The best player response in this set up would be to clear all the fungus, except what's in their base radius, which seems to me like it should piss Planet off.
In terms of the effect of Planetvalue, I like that it should make the native life stronger, but I don't think it should make farms grow slower. If fungal blooms can't spread far from the fungus, how would the fungus prevent the growth of farms? Also, since the current Planetvalue starts relatively high (about 25%), and keeps getting higher, farms start out growing slowly, and get slower and slower. There's no point in ever building them except very early on, or into the midgame if you are using the terraformer option. As is, there's almost no point in using the terraforming civic past a certain flowering counter.
My suggestion would be to keep the native life bonus, and increasing fungus spread effects, but also make a high flowering counter increase fungal blooms. I see fungal blooms in particular as the Planetmind intentionally directing its attacks as its intelligence grows.
I know that what I'm suggesting would make the planetvalue and flowering counter similar, but here's the important differences I see: Planetvalue would be the effects of humans destructive activities in terms of individual cities and factions, and would be something that could be reversed, when for instance when a faction realizes the harm it is doing (as Lal appears to have based on the quotes). The flowering counter on the other hand would be the effect of all the human life on Planet. It would show the growth in sentience of Planetmind and would only go in one direction, up. For factions that continued to do harm, it would make things worse and worse, but for a faction that adapts to life with Planet, (i.e. having a high planetvalue and using hybrid forests) it wouldn't cause as many problems.
(Wow, that's a long reply, I wonder if anyone will bother to read it all)
In a separate argument, I think that the flowering counter and planet values are pushing the player in opposite directions, the player wants to leave any fungus they can because this raises planetvalue, making fungal blooms less common. On the other hand, the player wants to get rid of as much fungus as possible, so as to reduce the flowering counter and make the native life weaker. The best player response in this set up would be to clear all the fungus, except what's in their base radius, which seems to me like it should piss Planet off.
In terms of the effect of Planetvalue, I like that it should make the native life stronger, but I don't think it should make farms grow slower. If fungal blooms can't spread far from the fungus, how would the fungus prevent the growth of farms? Also, since the current Planetvalue starts relatively high (about 25%), and keeps getting higher, farms start out growing slowly, and get slower and slower. There's no point in ever building them except very early on, or into the midgame if you are using the terraformer option. As is, there's almost no point in using the terraforming civic past a certain flowering counter.
My suggestion would be to keep the native life bonus, and increasing fungus spread effects, but also make a high flowering counter increase fungal blooms. I see fungal blooms in particular as the Planetmind intentionally directing its attacks as its intelligence grows.
I know that what I'm suggesting would make the planetvalue and flowering counter similar, but here's the important differences I see: Planetvalue would be the effects of humans destructive activities in terms of individual cities and factions, and would be something that could be reversed, when for instance when a faction realizes the harm it is doing (as Lal appears to have based on the quotes). The flowering counter on the other hand would be the effect of all the human life on Planet. It would show the growth in sentience of Planetmind and would only go in one direction, up. For factions that continued to do harm, it would make things worse and worse, but for a faction that adapts to life with Planet, (i.e. having a high planetvalue and using hybrid forests) it wouldn't cause as many problems.
(Wow, that's a long reply, I wonder if anyone will bother to read it all)
Maniac
Apolyton Sage
I don't understand. If both ecological destruction by terraformers and I assume planting fungus by hybrids increase the flowering counter, how can you fight it?
It could lead to strange situations like a Hybrid *wanting* all other factions to harm Planet.
No, you should clear all fungus in sight.
It could lead to strange situations like a Hybrid *wanting* all other factions to harm Planet.
No, you should clear all fungus in sight.
slugwalk
Chieftain
It would have to be set up so that the amount of fungus had no effect on flowering counter. If flowering counter is a measure of the Planetmind's intelligence and aggression, then I would think that it would be a factor of network complexity not size. For example, women have smaller brains than men, but are equally intelligent.
The way I see it, Planet should get more aggressive as time goes on. This counters the human factions increasing technology, unless they adapt to and mollify Planet. That is, use civics, religions, and technologies to get a high Planetvalue, in which case Planet will not attack them. So in that way, a growing flowering counter wouldn't benefit a Hybrid directed faction, except that it would harm factions that aren't.
The way I see it, Planet should get more aggressive as time goes on. This counters the human factions increasing technology, unless they adapt to and mollify Planet. That is, use civics, religions, and technologies to get a high Planetvalue, in which case Planet will not attack them. So in that way, a growing flowering counter wouldn't benefit a Hybrid directed faction, except that it would harm factions that aren't.
slugwalk
Chieftain
So I have no idea how to put this into Civ, but here's an equation to calculate the flowering counter (FC) based on my previous ideas:
FC(new) = FC(old) + (pop*5/area + negimp/(2*area))*runif(0,2)
where FC(new) is the FC for the current turn, FC(old) is the FC from last turn, pop is the current total population for all factions, area is the number of squares on the map, negimp is the total negative planetvalue of improvements on the map (e.g. two mines: negimp=1), and runif(0,2) is a random number from the uniform distribution ranging between 0 and 2 (this term is not strictly necessary, it just adds some unpredictability in the yearly change)
The Flowering counter displayed on the screen would actually be this value rounded to the nearest whole number.
The constants would probably need some tweaking. But I think these values won't be too many orders of magnitude off.
FC(new) = FC(old) + (pop*5/area + negimp/(2*area))*runif(0,2)
where FC(new) is the FC for the current turn, FC(old) is the FC from last turn, pop is the current total population for all factions, area is the number of squares on the map, negimp is the total negative planetvalue of improvements on the map (e.g. two mines: negimp=1), and runif(0,2) is a random number from the uniform distribution ranging between 0 and 2 (this term is not strictly necessary, it just adds some unpredictability in the yearly change)
The Flowering counter displayed on the screen would actually be this value rounded to the nearest whole number.
The constants would probably need some tweaking. But I think these values won't be too many orders of magnitude off.
Maniac
Apolyton Sage
I want a high Flowering Counter to benefit Hybrids, and harm Terraformers. This creates the possibility for an interesting conflict of interests between Hybrids and Terraformers.
Under your suggestion a Hybrid would be happy to see others pollute Planet.
slugwalk
Chieftain
I'm using the term Hybrid faction as shorthand for a faction that does all it can (civics, religions, technologies, etc) to work with planet rather than just talking about the civic. I'm guessing that you're doing so also.
The way I see it, a Hybrid faction would still benefit from a high FC in that it would do more harm to the other civs, but not be much of an issue to the Hybrid factions. The way it reads in the original SMAC quotes, and I feel the most logical path, would be that none of the factions benefit from the native life of planet (fungus and worms) at first, but as they discover new technologies they begin to be able to choose to work with planet. Deidre talked about attacks from mindworms in the early quotes. I think advanced technologies should provide Hybrid factions, specifically those factions with positive average planetvalues, with production bonuses on fungus (beyond the original plus one production with the civic). This would create conflict between the Hybrids and the Terraformers in that the Terraformers would want to get rid of all the fungus they can to prevent blooms, while the Hybrids want more.
Also I think the native life bonus for high average planetvalue should be extended to a bonus in all Psi combat, like in the original SMAC. This way Terraformers are threatened by the military use of native life by Hybrid factions. Then this should be balanced by the increased resources available to factions that build Edens and boreholes.
I've reconsidered and I feel that your point about Hybrid factions wanting others to build negative improvements is a valid one. Because of this, I now feel that the FC should only be related to the total population on Planet. My biggest reason for wanting it this way is that it gives the planet life continued importance throughout the game. As is, the biggest threat from Planet occurs at a middle point in the game, when the fungus has grown faster on the sea than the AI's can remove it on land. Eventually the player develops enough to tame Planet, while the growth of the AI factions is halted by more fungal blooms than they can deal with. If the agressiveness and intellect of Planet (as reflected by the FC) is tied to population, then it would be easier to balance it against the abilities of the AI. Also I think dealing with an agressive planet late in the game would make it more interesting for the player.
The way I see it, a Hybrid faction would still benefit from a high FC in that it would do more harm to the other civs, but not be much of an issue to the Hybrid factions. The way it reads in the original SMAC quotes, and I feel the most logical path, would be that none of the factions benefit from the native life of planet (fungus and worms) at first, but as they discover new technologies they begin to be able to choose to work with planet. Deidre talked about attacks from mindworms in the early quotes. I think advanced technologies should provide Hybrid factions, specifically those factions with positive average planetvalues, with production bonuses on fungus (beyond the original plus one production with the civic). This would create conflict between the Hybrids and the Terraformers in that the Terraformers would want to get rid of all the fungus they can to prevent blooms, while the Hybrids want more.
Also I think the native life bonus for high average planetvalue should be extended to a bonus in all Psi combat, like in the original SMAC. This way Terraformers are threatened by the military use of native life by Hybrid factions. Then this should be balanced by the increased resources available to factions that build Edens and boreholes.
I've reconsidered and I feel that your point about Hybrid factions wanting others to build negative improvements is a valid one. Because of this, I now feel that the FC should only be related to the total population on Planet. My biggest reason for wanting it this way is that it gives the planet life continued importance throughout the game. As is, the biggest threat from Planet occurs at a middle point in the game, when the fungus has grown faster on the sea than the AI's can remove it on land. Eventually the player develops enough to tame Planet, while the growth of the AI factions is halted by more fungal blooms than they can deal with. If the agressiveness and intellect of Planet (as reflected by the FC) is tied to population, then it would be easier to balance it against the abilities of the AI. Also I think dealing with an agressive planet late in the game would make it more interesting for the player.
slugwalk
Chieftain
OK, whether or not my ideas listed above get implemented, I feel like Planet's defenses are way too dangerous at the begging of the game, but less and less of an issue as the game goes on. Is this intentional? If so, I'll learn to live with it. Otherwise, I think the Flowering Counter mechanism should be changed.
Maniac
Apolyton Sage
What do you mean with "Planet's defenses"? Fungal blooms spawns, randomly wandering native life, all native life combat?
slugwalk
Chieftain
Yeah I should be more specific. My problem is really with the fungal blooms. I think there should be random wandering native life. Perhaps more than there is now. Although I haven't tried the raging barbarians option. Its the fungal blooms that are too dangerous and too common early in the game. Then once you've fortified with bunkers and can produce units easily the fungal blooms barely matter.
Maniac
Apolyton Sage
It's kinda funny. Arkham is currently saying in the main thread fungal blooms are still too dangerous in the late game.
As for too dangerous in the early game, I plan on letting a Perimeter Defense give an automatic Bunker unit in your base. That should make it easier to deal with fungus earlier.
As for fungal blooms becoming easier/too easy to deal with in the late game, I guess that's kinda inevitable in any game with an exponential economic growth curve. You could argue though that the threat of fungal blooms forces you to fortify yourself with bunkers, and even if as consequence the fungal blooms are no longer a real danger, it still leads to an interesting difference in military strategies and colonization strategies between a Hybrid and a Terraformer.
As for too dangerous in the early game, I plan on letting a Perimeter Defense give an automatic Bunker unit in your base. That should make it easier to deal with fungus earlier.
As for fungal blooms becoming easier/too easy to deal with in the late game, I guess that's kinda inevitable in any game with an exponential economic growth curve. You could argue though that the threat of fungal blooms forces you to fortify yourself with bunkers, and even if as consequence the fungal blooms are no longer a real danger, it still leads to an interesting difference in military strategies and colonization strategies between a Hybrid and a Terraformer.
slugwalk
Chieftain
I like that terraformers have to build up their defenses whereas Hybrids don't have to worry about it. However, I'd like to see the danger from Planet (mainly focused on fungal blooms) increase along with the human growth. I figure that's the whole point of the Flowering Counter. As is, my FC tends to start at about 20 and then it moves up to 30 fairly quickly, and then doesn't do much. However, if you want it to be a relatively constant effect, say so, and I'll stop harping on it.
Maniac
Apolyton Sage
I want the Flowering Counter to reach much higher heights in some games, but I want it to happen through other means than turning the entire sea in a fungal carpet. I figured it should happen through human action. For instance Hybrid Forests contribute three times as much to the Flowering Counter as Xenofungus. For that approach to work however, I need to improve the AI...
slugwalk
Chieftain
What if though, terraformer factions dominate. Should they be able to completely tame Planet? Is there anything wrong with basing it on total human population over time?
slugwalk
Chieftain
Also, how about starting it lower? As is, Terraformers tend to get smashed by Planet before they can even begin getting established.
