Temple or Library?

[Pyrrhos]

These are the first improvements available that will give a new town culture. Which is the best choice? If we ignore the slight difference in cost (Temple 60, Library 80 shields), that some civs get one, or in the case of Babylonians both, cheaper and that both have the sampe upkeep cost (1 gold), what are the differences in gaming terms between them?

* Temple becomes available much sooner with Ceremonial Burial whereas you need to obtain several tech before you can build Libraries.

* Disregarding city placement and overlap, both will give you theoretical access to another 12 squares for production. With a Temple, the cultural border expands to allow this after 5 turns. If you have a Library, you need one turn less, 4.

* The second expansion (to cover another 16 squares which the town cannot use) comes after 50 turns with a Temple, 34 with a Library.

* Both gives some measure of protection against culture flip with Library the better as it gives 3 culture against the Temple's 2.

* The Library increases the number of beakers by 50%, which in a typical town would be something like 1-2 extra beakers (?).

* With a Temple, you can use one more tile for pruduction of (raw) food, shields and gold before the town goes into civil disorder. For a roaded BG under despotism, this means an extra two food, one shield and two commerce (translating to one extra gold with zero or very low corruption). Also, if I remember correctly, more commerce will result in more beakers.

* An alternative way of looking at it is that using Temples means an increment or two less on the lux tax slider to keep the rabble from rioting. This translates into either more beakers or more gold, sometimes both. This could result in my being able to sell techs instead of buying them.



I know a lot of people swear by the Library, but my answer to the question is Temple all the time for the reasons stated above. Am I wrong and if so, what have I forgotten or overlooked?

 

[Bartleby]

Build towns closer together so you don't need many border expansions. Where you do want border expanstions, build whichever is cheaper.

 

[Kumquat]

If you play Monarch and below you can build both in every city...at least I do

 

[Aceman101]

I build libraries only. I can't remember the last time I built a temple. The reason I like library are:

• Libraries give three culture per turn, temples only give two.
• Libraries Increase science output by 50% which is massive.
• I play with scientific civ's most of the time, which means libraries are half the price, and half-priced libraries are actually cheaper to build than temples.
• It increases my tech rate. Especially in large cities.
• If I had a library in all the cities that produce many shields and commerce (Which I do anyway), I can notch down the science slider, making up for the upkeep, and possible even adding on a bit more gold per turn.
• Because libraries have three culture per turn, my border expansion is quicker and city flipping is less common since I will gain more culture.

These are the only good things about temples:

• Temples Give +1 Happiness.
• Temples Give 2 culture per turn (1 less than library).
• You can notch down the lux slider if you build a temple in every city. This isn't as promising as notching down the science slider, because there will always be large cities that require an increase in the lux slider. Not to mention the resisting and/or rioting cities.
• Temples are cheaper than libraries IF your not playing scientific civs. The exception to that is if you're playing scientific and religious civs.
• Earlier border expansion. But Lib's will make up for this with their 3 culture.

 

[Pyrrhos]

Aceman, the 50% increase in beakers is not massive until you have plenty of cities (pop 7-12) which usually doesn't happen until the MA! My question was more about which building you use initially to gain that culture.

The useful border expansion, as I pointed out, is the first one. In practice, a Library is just one turn quicker than a Temple - 4 against 5 turns. If you choose to build Temples, you will have access to that expansion a great many turns earlier and with it, a better selection of squares to optimize your production. What if the wheat or cattle is two tiles from the river? Either you settle the wheat/cattle but need to build that Aqueduct, or you settle the river an MUST have some culture. Do you choose to settle off the river or do you wait until you can build a Library to optimize the production? Either way, you lose out if you don't settle on the river and build a Temple! As you also can use one more square without having to fiddle around with the lux slider or find and connect luxuries (which is not a primary objective in the earliest parts of the game), you can have even greater production - which in turn means that you can maintain a greater rate of expansion!

When we come to the late AA or early MA, I still build those Libraries for the beakers and also to permit me to build Unis too!

 

[Pyrrhos]

Forgot to add that you can waste a lot of production by building warriors/spearmen to combat the sad faces instead of building a Temple. To be of any use, you ought to build barracks as well, which wastes even more production if you have to do it in every new town.

 

[Mesodius]

Forgot to add that you can waste a lot of production by building warriors/spearmen to combat the sad faces instead of building a Temple. To be of any use, you ought to build barracks as well, which wastes even more production if you have to do it in every new town.

But if you are building libraries, you are generating enough science that you can essentially raise your luxury bar for free (without decreasing science output). If your lux bar is up you don't NEED those units to combat sad faces. Those cities are already content. If your cities have to wait around until you build temples (which takes some time in those far-away cities), you have to have troops sitting around in those cities. Thats the good thing about the lux slider, it effects ALL cities, each one doesn't have to build a temple in it to grow. If you need culture there, just build library, then you're generating even more science, which lowers costs further.

 

[Aceman101]

Forgot to add that you can waste a lot of production by building warriors/spearmen to combat the sad faces instead of building a Temple. To be of any use, you ought to build barracks as well, which wastes even more production if you have to do it in every new town.

So does building a temple. And I don't use warriors or any troops for MP. That's what the lux slider is their for. And temples hardly increase problems, it's only 1 happy face.

Aceman, the 50% increase in beakers is not massive until you have plenty of cities (pop 7-12) which usually doesn't happen until the MA! My question was more about which building you use initially to gain that culture.

For the Ancient ages it is, because techs are so cheap.

The useful border expansion, as I pointed out, is the first one. In practice, a Library is just one turn quicker than a Temple - 4 against 5 turns. If you choose to build Temples, you will have access to that expansion a great many turns earlier and with it, a better selection of squares to optimize your production. What if the wheat or cattle is two tiles from the river? Either you settle the wheat/cattle but need to build that Aqueduct, or you settle the river an MUST have some culture. Do you choose to settle off the river or do you wait until you can build a Library to optimize the production? Either way, you lose out if you don't settle on the river and build a Temple!

Actually, libraries have three culture per turn, which means quicker expansion. And they're cheaper for me because I play scientific civ's most of the time.

As you also can use one more square without having to fiddle around with the lux slider or find and connect luxuries (which is not a primary objective in the earliest parts of the game), you can have even greater production - which in turn means that you can maintain a greater rate of expansion!

With Lib's you can reduce the science slider. And that early on, your towns shouldn't need the lux slider. You're towns should be building settlers every time they reach size 3. And size 3 towns don't need the lux slider.

And yes, luxuries are a priority early on because the AI will come and grab them if you don't.

(EDIT) I just read that temples don't even make citizens happy, they make them content! Only content!!!! I overestimated the temple!

(EDIT 2) Ok, that was a bit harsh. Sorry, Pyrrhos. I overreact when debating these things. Temples can be really useful, so can libraries. Everything in moderation.

 

[Pyrrhos]

Buddy, I see I'm not explaining it properly. Take this example and I apologize if it's too basic at some points:

Our second, third or fourth town has just gotten to pop 4 and the citizens looks like this:



This town WILL riot unless we do something. The easiest solution is to add a This means that under despo and unless this town has access to an irrigated cattle/wheat/flood plain square, it will not grow. You are wasting one square that should be productive!

The second option is to use the lux slider, but this will cost you either beakers or gold and possibly both if one increment is not enough. This option is wasteful, end of!

The third option would be to add (regular) warriors at a cost of 10 shields and, on average, three turns to produce. In effect, this is a waste of resources as warriors aren't very useful. If we build spearmen, we might as well build a barracks first and get vets. This costs even more shields and turns during which we should have produced something more useful! Whichever way, this option wastes production!

The fourth option would be to hook up another luxury, but usually at this stage we probably have the easy-access one (singular) already hooked up. Usually not an option.

A Library would do no good in this situation, even if we by some miracle have achieved Litterature this early!

A temple, however, would make the faces look like this:



This town will not riot! Of course, the temple took some 15 turns and 60 shields to build (~8 and 30 if you're religious). But - - >

Usually, it's some 50 turns between the acquisition of CB and Lit. During this time, the extra BG square made available by the Temple will have produced 100 food, 50 shields, 100 commerce for your civ. That's five workers, five pop points and close on fifty gold saved by building a temple! Also, the as the number of beakers depends in part on commerce produced, it's a h**l of a lot of beakers in the context of the stage of the game!

Put it another way, by building a Temple you GAIN enough resources so you can afford to build the Library too.

Temple roolz, ok!


Seriously tho, what am I missing as so many experienced players skip building Temples and go straight for Libraries? The maths of it just doesn't add up!

 

[Scratcher]

Unless I am going for a cultural victory, or happiness is a major issue, I never build temples. I tend to build libraries for the science benefit in my core cities, and not for the cultural expansion.

I usually build my outer cities nearer together for science farms so these do not get a library or a temple. A temple can be rushed for a needed quick border expansion to gain a resource.

 

[Aceman101]

Ok, I think a lot differently. This could go on for a while, si I'm going to leave it there for now.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

If there is land behind your cities that you want to take by cultural expansion. Don't build any, just build (or conquer) a city that will make it your land.
So border expansion by culture is only needed for coastal towns. (wich is very unfortunate since these also have to build an aquaduct and harbor usually. This gives them so much infrastructure to build that they often don't get to building units during ancient age)

If your coastal town is in a corrupt area, there is no reason to expand its border. So we can further limit the need for cultural expansion to coastal core towns.

Coastal core towns are your best commerce providers since water provides more commerce than your average land tile.
These cities often benefit well from a library. The 1 happy face from a temple is worth 1gpt. (equal to its upkeep cost). The library can provide up to about 10gpt worth of science or so.

Cultural expansion is never the first priority since they have 8 tiles to work already anyway. So the earlier availabillity is pretty much useless.

The extra tile used because of the 1 happy citizen is not the way to calculate. You can make that dude happy by other means as well. So 1 happiness is just what it is: 1 happyness = 1 gpt. Only for your biggest core city, a temple could be worth for happiness as it could lower the slider just by itself (or prevent the need of a specialist and increase this towns production) But that is only for your biggest city as this is the city that dictates your lux slider. And even in the biggest city i don't build a temple because being the biggest isn't a permanent condition and in the future when it grows bigger, it will need a market for happiness anyway. Once you have a market, all other means of happiness are a waste. If you properly obtain luxuries, a market will solve all your happiness problems for the rest of the game.
(That is the part you are missing pyrrhos)

This leaves only advantages for the Library, none for the temple

 

[MAS]

My first priority is expanding my empire, first by building more settlers and workers, then by building offensive units to attack and conquer my neighbors.

By the time I start building any city improvement (not counting barracks and a select few granaries) I'm already in the middle ages, I already have both techs, and my core cities are already at their max size. If not near fresh water, I'll build the aquaduct before library/market.

Seriously tho, what am I missing as so many experienced players skip building Temples and go straight for Libraries? The maths of it just doesn't add up!

If you build a worker, the city will look like this:

Plus you will have a very useful worker, that can make roads that increase commerce that will increase both the output of beakers and the lux slider! A worker will cost only 10 shields, and 1 gpt upkeep (maybe even 0 if you are still below your free upkeep limit)

If you build a settler, the city will look like this:

A settler will cost only 30 shields, and it removes 2 unhappy. Its 1 gpt upkeep will last only a few turns, then it is removed as you build a new city with it.

If you build a horseman (even 2 horseman for non religious civ) you can use them to conquer more lux (and more land)

The lux slider is a temporary solution, its main use is to prevent a stop in growth. Growth that leads to exponentially more power.
The exponential growth curve lags behind a bit in the beginning, but will quickly pass other growth curves by a large amount.
Making future research so much more powerful, it more than makes up for what you are currently "wasting" to the LUX slider.

A temple cost 30, or 60 shields, that are NOT used for growth with settlers, and are not used for growth with offensive units.
More importantly, building a temple wastes turns that are not used for growth, hence you are lagging your exponential growth curve, it will take much longer before you have recovered the wasted lux-commerce.

The regular warriors I use for MP very early in the game are the result of surplus shields. If i can collect 40 shields in the time it takes to collect 40 food (for the 2 pop it takes to build a settler) or I collect 20 shields in the time it takes to collect 20 food (1 pop for a worker) then I'll build a warrior first, so that the shields are at least used for something (MP, and early hostility prevention in this case) So I end up using otherwise wasted shields to prevent wasting some commerce to lux.

 

[Pyrrhos]

Thx! Just a couple of questions:

Cultural expansion is never the first priority since they have 8 tiles to work already anyway. So the earlier availabillity is pretty much useless.

If I don't settle next to fresh water, river or lake, I will have to build an aqueduct, which is a huge waste of shields and time, and pop growth until I do that could be better used to pop rush buildings, right?

If I settle next to fresh water, those eight available tiles (for most towns anyway) might not yield more than two extra food = slow pop growth and 4-6 shields = long build-times. By building some culture, I'll get access to another 12 tiles which increase the number of useable tiles. If river, double the number of bonus commerce squares available as well as a substantial increase in both pop growth and shield production.

The extra tile used because of the 1 happy citizen is not the way to calculate. You can make that dude happy by other means as well. So 1 happiness is just what it is: 1 happyness = 1 gpt.

Why? That's the way it works out - an extra square made available WITHOUT having to resort to those other means which all DECREASE the overall output (except for the extra lux - if you can get it!). If I use the lux slider, it usually works out at minus two gpt which taken over 50 turns is 100 (or twice the amount I claim the temple saves you). If there's a lux a bit away, I have to invest 3 worker turns per square to build a road plus expend a worker. Then I have to defend my colony = even more waste. If I have a trade route, I pay for the extra lux from another civ. If I build military units, I can use them for invasion later on, but that doesn't solve the basic problem. The clown IS a solution, but is wasteful.

Is there a method other than those I outlined above, Wacken?

 

[WackenOpenAir]

Thx! Just a couple of questions:
If I don't settle next to fresh water, river or lake, I will have to build an aqueduct, which is a huge waste of shields and time, and pop growth until I do that could be better used to pop rush buildings, right?

I don't pop rush a lot, usually i prefer building workers or settlers if i can't have the city grow.

If I settle next to fresh water, those eight available tiles (for most towns anyway) might not yield more than two extra food = slow pop growth and 4-6 shields = long build-times. By building some culture, I'll get access to another 12 tiles which increase the number of useable tiles. If river, double the number of bonus commerce squares available as well as a substantial increase in both pop growth and shield production.

I don't really build towns at 2 tiles from cows, weed and rivers usually

Why? That's the way it works out - an extra square made available WITHOUT having to resort to those other means which all DECREASE the overall output (except for the extra lux - if you can get it!). If I use the lux slider, it usually works out at minus two gpt which taken over 50 turns is 100 (or twice the amount I claim the temple saves you). If there's a lux a bit away, I have to invest 3 worker turns per square to build a road plus expend a worker. Then I have to defend my colony = even more waste. If I have a trade route, I pay for the extra lux from another civ. If I build military units, I can use them for invasion later on, but that doesn't solve the basic problem. The clown IS a solution, but is wasteful.

Is there a method other than those I outlined above, Wacken?

I don't know why your lux slider would cost 2 gpt per happiness while mine costs 1. Connecting luxes is a very high priority and one of the few things that may get me to stack workers on unroaded tiles. Trade luxes from other civs with old technologies. Units certainly solve all problems, go conquer !
Finally the solution is to build workers settlers when towns get too big.

If you build a worker, the city will look like this:

What would a city with 23 citizens and a market with all luxes look like ?

 

[MAS]

Don't build a colony, build a city near the lux resource.
I don't even bother to prioritize the lux site, I prioritize city sites that support faster growth, I'll get that lux eventually.

What is wasted to lux-tax now, is more than made up later, with the power of exponential growth.

 

[MAS]

What would a city with 23 citizens and a market with all luxes look like ?

This forum has a limit on the #no of smilies in one post.

...Yeah, I hate it too, it always prevents me from illustrating the effect of a market on 8 lux resources.

 

[Pyrrhos]

This forum has a limit on the #no of smilies in one post.

...Yeah, I hate it too, it always prevents me from illustrating the effect of a market on 8 lux resources.

It doesn't prevent me from illustrating the effect of wheat (Cf Wacken's "weed" on seven posters:

 

[Empiremaker]

For happiness temples cost 1gpt, which is the same as the lux slider, minus 60 shields. Most of the time, cities don't need culture becuase placement will fill in the gaps.

 

[ecuwins]

This may have been said for I did not read the whole thread, sorry.

There is a point where a temple or library can be justified in order to work a whale tile. A library is without question the better choice here (if available).
The reason for this is that without the expansion the tile is not worked while with the expansion the extra shield, food, and gold will more than pay for the building over the course of time. Granted there are some tiles you will want to work first but there is a point where it is worth your while to work the ocean. Whale or not I always put a library, market, and harbor in my coastal cities that are not ridiculously corrupt.