Terra maps, are they racist?
- Thread starter timcrewgreen
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need my speed
Rex Omnium Imperarium
And this is one of the things I hate most about modern times. Politic corectness. Want to state your opinion? You might offend someone! Better just say 'Yes, I agree!' or 'No, I'm very sorry sir, but I must confess that I partly disagree.'. It's the same here, the term 'barbarian' is insulting. It's a game, seriously, my opinion is that anyone who has qualms with implenting slavery, police state, having Hitler as a leader, or finding other things offending, has serious trouble recognizing the difference between a game and reality. To say the least. I know I'm probably offending people. So what, I don't personally attack you or something, I'm just stating my opinion. Anyway, sorry because I offended you, but do know that I think this.
timcrewgreen
Chieftain
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No no no. I don't have problems at all exploiting game mechanics in civ, because i understand that it is a game. And of course people could be offended, that's free speech for you. I was just stated that the term barbarian could be viewed as offensive, and it is their right to be offended, and I think kochman is with me on this one. On the other hand, I don't think people have the right NOT to be offended, as you seem to be implying, because that contstrains free speech. I have no problem with people disagreeing with me, so long as they accept my right to disagree with them. RE: Political correctness. There is NOTHING wrong with political correctness per se. People are allowed to have their own opinions about when it goes too far, even I do. But generally it is necessary to discourage the use of what are widely considered to be inflammatory, insulting or bigoted terms, in certain contexts. Tell me which is better, moderate political correctness, or the widespread and normative use of derogatory terminology across society, like in nazi germany?
Godwin's law ftw
What would you prefer to call them?
Unaffiliated Generic Civilizations That Are Always War With All Other Civilizations And Tech Really Slowly
That is what the "barbarians" are in civilization. They are a generic, random "civilization" that are on an always war setting with all of ther civilizations. Given enough time, the barbarians can tech to rifling. Oh, these UGCTAAWWAOCATRS can only be created if no one is looking at them.
Absolute Zero
Settler
It's a possibility that the game developers didn't even intend to have barbarians in the "New World" representing minor civilizations. They could have simply meant to have an empty New World, except that the game mechanics cause barbs to spawn in unexplored places, meaning there would be a very high chance of barbs spawning randomly in the New World since it's completely free of "real" civilizations.
timcrewgreen
Chieftain
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In answer to the question "What would I could barbarians" I would say, why do we even need barbarians? Why can't we just have other civs? When I first played a terra map, I couldn't figure out why all the other civs appeared to be on my land mass. When the penny finally dropped (ok I'm slow 
) I thought "oh, I see". In response to the poster who suggests the developers might have intended the new world to be empty I say a) I'm pretty sure they would have understood the mechanics of their own game enough to realise that barbarians would appear b) that would be even worse, as it suggests colonised land is empty. They actually have a name for that idea, which was "terra nullius". This was the legal fiction used to justify the colonisation of foreign lands. There was a court case about it Eddie Mabo V the state of Queensland in Australia. Look it up, it's quite illuminating
) I thought "oh, I see". In response to the poster who suggests the developers might have intended the new world to be empty I say a) I'm pretty sure they would have understood the mechanics of their own game enough to realise that barbarians would appear b) that would be even worse, as it suggests colonised land is empty. They actually have a name for that idea, which was "terra nullius". This was the legal fiction used to justify the colonisation of foreign lands. There was a court case about it Eddie Mabo V the state of Queensland in Australia. Look it up, it's quite illuminating
OpheliaImmortal
Chieftain
Its not really all that racist, just an attempt to infuse some realism into the game. The new world was so starved of many key developemental resources that the nations on it didn't have much of a chance to grow into large, centralized states, and the easiest way to represent this in the civilization engine is through barbarian units, perhaps with each one representing an entire chiefdom or tribe... which makes the colonization of the new world slightly more... genocidal and at the same time accurate
need my speed
Rex Omnium Imperarium
Yeah, I understand that I can't say 'stupid mother
ing , I hope you rot in hell vile '. That is logical, as it is insulting and nothing else. But nowadays, you can hardly say 'I think you're wearing stupid clothes'. And that kind of things should be able to be said, in my opinion. And I am absolutely for discussions and disagreements, and you have a right to be offended etcetera, I was just saying that I think it's a bit stupid. But, I thought you had moral objections against slavery (in the game, that is) etcetera so...If you're only saying that people have a right to be offended, well, why not? I should be able to be offended by anything, from being called names to seeing the letter 'A'. Not that being offended bothers me, in fact, I laugh it of. That's why I am never offended. 
But, I don't see the term barbarian as offensive, but then again, I don't see much as offensive.
Airey
Prince
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If one looks hard enough, he can find faults with everything in life.
Isn't it also offensive for you to come in with the assumption that programmers are utterally insensitive to use the word "Barbarians," that might offend some people?
Hey, it might also be offensive to people that killing other human beings is simply wrong (which is a big part of the game, slavery, military action).
The definition of Free Speech doesn't depend on other people's opinion. You are free to think what you like. But your position shouldn't change base on other people's opinion. In all the posts, nobody is disrespecting your opinion. Please don't come into a debate with the assumption that everyone else is evil and I am fighting a justify cause. If people feel it's a minor issue, then we need to respect their opinion as much as yours. Why don't we just all agree to disagree.
imo, it's really a minor issue when the game give you the option of playing without "barbarians." If you don't like barbarians, just pick another name. It's function doesn't change. You can even give them modern techs if you want. Either way, there are plenty of alternatives available. Open your heart, just enjoy the game, and don't sweat the little stuff.
Isn't it also offensive for you to come in with the assumption that programmers are utterally insensitive to use the word "Barbarians," that might offend some people?
Hey, it might also be offensive to people that killing other human beings is simply wrong (which is a big part of the game, slavery, military action).
The definition of Free Speech doesn't depend on other people's opinion. You are free to think what you like. But your position shouldn't change base on other people's opinion. In all the posts, nobody is disrespecting your opinion. Please don't come into a debate with the assumption that everyone else is evil and I am fighting a justify cause. If people feel it's a minor issue, then we need to respect their opinion as much as yours. Why don't we just all agree to disagree.
imo, it's really a minor issue when the game give you the option of playing without "barbarians." If you don't like barbarians, just pick another name. It's function doesn't change. You can even give them modern techs if you want. Either way, there are plenty of alternatives available. Open your heart, just enjoy the game, and don't sweat the little stuff.
timcrewgreen
Chieftain
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Its not really all that racist, just an attempt to infuse some realism into the game. The new world was so starved of many key developemental resources that the nations on it didn't have much of a chance to grow into large, centralized states, and the easiest way to represent this in the civilization engine is through barbarian units, perhaps with each one representing an entire chiefdom or tribe... which makes the colonization of the new world slightly more... genocidal and at the same time accurate
Good point, well made
timcrewgreen
Chieftain
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Maybe my views will offend some people, but I'm ok with that! I don't think anyone's evil at all, or at least, they are no more evil than I am for actually playing a game where it is possible to commit so many atrocities. I'm trying to come across as a reasonable, sane individual but it looks like I'm doing a bad job. So ok, terra maps aren't racist
it could make an interesting civ scenario - you start as a native american tribe and around 1500 AD you have to survive a genocidal onslaught from technologically advanced, yet savage, barbarians that appear in galleons and frigates on your east coast. try and make pacts with other native american civs to fight them off..
I've been meaning to try out the LOR mod on a Terra map to see if something like that would spring up. I mean it wouldn't be accurate in the sense of what civs were there most likely but in my last game America and England were Vassaled to Sitting Bull so, you know, whatever.
And for the record; Cherokee and Lakota chick over here is not offended by the barbarian thing as it pertains to the game. I see why you feel as you do but it doesn't bug me in the slightest. But then I prefer American Indian to Native American so maybe I just have a weird worldview.
And for the record; Cherokee and Lakota chick over here is not offended by the barbarian thing as it pertains to the game. I see why you feel as you do but it doesn't bug me in the slightest. But then I prefer American Indian to Native American so maybe I just have a weird worldview.
TheMeInTeam
If A implies B...
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Until it is taken to irrational and ignorant extremes, yes.
Unfortunately that happens a lot. OP is a very very good example, since any accusation of "racism" in the context of "variable civilizations with different types of people colonize sets of populations that are technologically backwards". Civilizations that historically played host to colonization could very well be the ones doing it in Terra.
But accusing the civ model of racism makes as much sense as accusing civ of grand theft auto. Do a definition check and at least ask what you really mean if you're going to pretend this over-politically correct nonsense is good.
Feel free to turn the barbarians off when you play a terra map.
Feel free to place some other civs on the "new world" at the start of the game using world builder. Otherwise, just play continents or hemispheres.
You have the tools to overcome your perceived "racism".
For any Sims 2 people who frequent the MATY boards, I'm having an offensive to Wiccans flashback. The thread itself was 50 times more ridiculous just because of who posted it to begin with. Second link may not be SFW; the only rules at that board has are MOAR FIGHT and grammar is nice. First link is fine but if you go wandering around that site and get offended and/or fired, don't blame me.
King Flevance
Deity
I have to log in to read the thread. :'(
Bah, well. Civ ain't racist for this and this is a perfect example of why political correctness is usually a bad thing. Even "sophisticated" people take a mile when given an inch.
Bah, well. Civ ain't racist for this and this is a perfect example of why political correctness is usually a bad thing. Even "sophisticated" people take a mile when given an inch.
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