Terra maps, are they racist?

[King Flevance]

Who's this Cid guy? He just sounds racist! Sid should fire him.

 

[Airship]

The Celts, Goths and so on were barbarians, so what’s the issue? The game just follows history, not every country became industrialised at the same time.


But I guess you could have a "Politically Correct” technology if you like.


National Wonder – Political Correctness + 2 Culture -1 Production -1 Research

+1 Happiness in all Cities, +1 Free Unhappy Citizen specialist in all cities
Requires Democracy
Needed Civic – Emancipation
New Government required – The Political Class

 

[Lemon Merchant]

The Celts, Goths and so on were barbarians, so what’s the issue? The game just follows history, not every country became industrialised at the same time.


But I guess you could have a "Politically Correct” technology if you like.


National Wonder – Political Correctness + 2 Culture -1 Production -1 Research

+1 Happiness in all Cities, +1 Free Unhappy Citizen specialist in all cities
Requires Democracy
Needed Civic – Emancipation
New Government required – The Political Class

You forgot -1 Commerce for the city government needing to have various committees to study ways to be more PC, and the wasted time and lost production that inevitably follows.

Also, there should also be a free Rabble-Rouser in each city to locate and research perceived slights to complain about, and assist the Unhappy Citizen Specialist in being cranky.

 

[dvitol]

Not sure if anybody's still reading this but I think the point is that the OP was making a post-colonial critique of the map. Racism is both subtle and blatant, and one of the ways racism shows up these days is through historical narrative. For a present day example you can see what's happening with the Tucson Unified School District's banning of "ethnic studies" meaning any history that doesn't center white people.

The historical narrative is that the Europeans came to the new world and beat back the savages to plant civilization, and this is the narrative present in the Terra map. Saying that there are no "races" in civilization or that the Aztecs or Native Americans (a grouping that is a bit broad considering the diversity of tribes that existed then and now, but that's a different post altogether) start off in the old world so it's not like they're being colonized is missing the point.

It's being purposely thick to not see how the way the Terra map plays out is supposed to recreate the colonization of North and South America. And it's also pretty obvious that Europeans have historically been pretty racist with regards to the agency of colonized peoples and viewing them as less than human. I don't think that the OP is wrong claiming that the Terra map recreates a the racist narrative of European civilization conquering the Savages within the game.

The point of critique isn't that you can't enjoy something that's problematic. And shutting yourselves off to the critique or feeling like you're being called a bad person because you enjoy something that problematic is not the way to grow as a person. Sure it's "just a game" but popular culture is informed by deep and complex stories. I don't think it's wrong to think about stories from other people's point of view.

 

[tdy99]

The Celts, Goths and so on were barbarians, so what’s the issue? The game just follows history, not every country became industrialised at the same time.


But I guess you could have a "Politically Correct” technology if you like.


National Wonder – Political Correctness + 2 Culture -1 Production -1 Research

+1 Happiness in all Cities, +1 Free Unhappy Citizen specialist in all cities
Requires Democracy
Needed Civic – Emancipation
New Government required – The Political Class

If you were going to have a Political Correctness wonder/civic it should be something like: -3 culture, -2 research, -2 production, +2 food (due to immigrant workers), and -50% "We Yearn To Join Our Homeland" unhappiness due to multiculturalism.

Overall, a crappy civic and one that would be more appropriate as a negative random event than something you would actually strive for. Perhaps it should be a random event that has a certain chance of occurring after the discovery of communism or liberalism.

 

[AJ11]

Not sure if anybody's still reading this but I think the point is that the OP was making a post-colonial critique of the map. Racism is both subtle and blatant, and one of the ways racism shows up these days is through historical narrative. For a present day example you can see what's happening with the Tucson Unified School District's banning of "ethnic studies" meaning any history that doesn't center white people.

The historical narrative is that the Europeans came to the new world and beat back the savages to plant civilization, and this is the narrative present in the Terra map. Saying that there are no "races" in civilization or that the Aztecs or Native Americans (a grouping that is a bit broad considering the diversity of tribes that existed then and now, but that's a different post altogether) start off in the old world so it's not like they're being colonized is missing the point.

It's being purposely thick to not see how the way the Terra map plays out is supposed to recreate the colonization of North and South America. And it's also pretty obvious that Europeans have historically been pretty racist with regards to the agency of colonized peoples and viewing them as less than human. I don't think that the OP is wrong claiming that the Terra map recreates a the racist narrative of European civilization conquering the Savages within the game.

The point of critique isn't that you can't enjoy something that's problematic. And shutting yourselves off to the critique or feeling like you're being called a bad person because you enjoy something that problematic is not the way to grow as a person. Sure it's "just a game" but popular culture is informed by deep and complex stories. I don't think it's wrong to think about stories from other people's point of view.

This is complete BS. Racism requires that you have the intention of judging someone by his race. So what is the race of pixels again?

As a person of a minority descent in Western countries, I find it laughable that in most cases, the only ones who are racist are the white men. Towards THEMSELVES primarily, and secondarily towards others in that supercillious "You poor non-white thing, you really need the white man's help in order to be "equal", don't you? Otherwise, you are just a bunch of oppressed drunkards" way.

In other words, as a minority, most of the time, I find that someone is being racist towards me when they go on and on and on about how the white man shouldn't say or do something because it might insult me. They know better than I how, when and why I should be insulted.

I don't know about other minorities, but I find that even more racist than those who openly talk about my race.

 

[Akbarthegreat]

This is complete BS. Racism requires that you have the intention of judging someone by his race. So what is the race of pixels again?

As a person of a minority descent in Western countries, I find it laughable that in most cases, the only ones who are racist are the white men. Towards THEMSELVES primarily, and secondarily towards others in that supercillious "You poor non-white thing, you really need the white man's help in order to be "equal", don't you? Otherwise, you are just a bunch of oppressed drunkards" way.

In other words, as a minority, most of the time, I find that someone is being racist towards me when they go on and on and on about how the white man shouldn't say or do something because it might insult me. They know better than I how, when and why I should be insulted.

I don't know about other minorities, but I find that even more racist than those who openly talk about my race.

I don't give a damn. Continue playing civ.

 

[AJ11]

I don't give a damn. Continue playing civ.

Then, is it a good thing that it wasn't addressed to you, now, isn't it?

 

[vandermerwe]

It's being purposely thick to not see how the way the Terra map plays out is supposed to recreate the colonization of North and South America. And it's also pretty obvious that Europeans have historically been pretty racist with regards to the agency of colonized peoples and viewing them as less than human. I don't think that the OP is wrong claiming that the Terra map recreates a the racist narrative of European civilization conquering the Savages within the game.

It's not 'a racist narrative'. Take out your value-term 'savages' and it represents a real period of human history. For sure, that period involved some pretty grotesque things being done in the name of presumed national, racial or religious superiority, or simple megalomania / greed,... but the same goes for pretty much any game of Civ. We all (if we're any good) routinely sacrifice civilians to slave labour, make war on weaker neighbours without any real pretext (and often by just flinging large numbers of inferior troops into suicidal headlong attacks), raze large cities to the ground, destroy natural habitats to build stuff quicker, switch into and out of democracy when it suits us, and unleash nuclear annihilation just because it's effective in the late game. I doubt it means we would be more likely to do these things IRL given the chance, or that we're somehow supporting real colonists, dictators or warmongers who did.

If you can accept all of that then a superficial similarity between a Terra map and the forced colonisation of the Americas seems like a minor detail to me. And if you can't accept that, then there's the Always Peace option. Or choosing another way of passing your time.

BTW I'm a woolly-minded pacifist leftie and proud of it. I agree 100% with what seem to be your views on the actual details and consequences of colonialism. But I can't buy the stance that everything you do - even the utterly inconsequential things like Civ - must somehow be an analogy of those or other principles. That's not just PC: it's bad old-fashioned puritanism.

 

[Core Imposter]

Colonialism did an excellant job of spreading civilization. It would be helpful to remember that native populations exhibited every negative behavior towards their fellow man that colonizing populations did. The racial elements were all coincidental unless there was a causitive element of genetic disability at work. I tend to think not.

These present generations seem incapable of critical thinking processes.

Tanning salons, are they racist?

 

[Abegweit]

I thought this thread was dead.

 

[Lemon Merchant]

I'm the meanest, most awful woman on earth -- when I'm playing Civ.

I still don't think of the little pixels that represent the Native Americans as a bunch of "drunkards" or "savages" or whatever the case may be. On a Civ map of any kind, they are a nation, with cities, technologies, and weapons often stronger than my own. In the vernacular, "I take their stuff" if I can and I try to win the game. The game.

Those that fall victim to the PC viewpoint can see racism everywhere, and that is just as bad as donning a sheet and going about terrorizing minorities with the fellow Klansmen, IMO. We've become so foolish as a society that Caucasians fall all over themselves to apologize for some possible slight (even one that happened 50 to 100 years ago, here in Canada), and minorities play the "Race Card" every time they don't get their way. Boo hoo to both sets of fools.

We're a collection of morons, as a society. I am unapologetically European (as in directly from the lovely Emerald island next door to the UK), and I don't feel any guilt whatsoever. Look how badly the Europeans have treated each other throughout history. Heck, even in today's day and age, a decently sized portion of my homeland is still under British rule. Am I crying racism? After all, it's another culture doing this to my fellow Irishmen/women. Of course not. It's only political stupidity and tyranny from the Crown. (And that's where my comments on that subject end, lest I attract the ire of a moderator. )

The point is, how can you enjoy something if you're always looking for something unjust in it? "Oh, that offends me!" "Huck Finn should be burned alive!" "Where are the Nazi book burnings when we need them?" "I pulled out a gun and shot my monitor because Elizabeth's pixels looked racist!" Jeez...

AJ11 said it best: What is the race of a bunch of pixels?

Look at the game when you play, not the foolishness you think it represents. I don't see color or race in people, I only see people. We should only see people or pixels when we play.

</diatribe>

 

[Archon_Wing]

Considering almost all nations in the past have considered outsiders to be barbarians, it's pretty silly to single out Terra...

 

[ajsciri4]

I see what those arguing that it is indeed racist are saying, but I wouldn't call it racist. It's racist if there's personal intention in causing harm to the barbarians, but the fact remains that this is a video game. I'm playing a game as Rome on a Terra map (starting in Renaissance so I can colonize immediately) and I don't consider it racist to kill the technologically inferior barbarians, it's a game.

 

[slengtorm]

OP raises a question worth considering, I guess, as it is true that the European conquest of the Americas was one of the most gruesome, large-scale travesties in modern history; that that conquest was often motivated by racist elements; and that the narrative of that conquest has often come down to us in forms infused with racist elements. However, very brief consideration determines the answer to the question to be an emphatic "no."

The Terra map script, as I understand it (never having played it, eep), is intended to pose a situation similar to real-world history in that the pace of technological advancement diverges dramatically not only between civilizations but between entire regions previously without contact. Really, Civ is otherwise unrealistic in its spacing settlers out more or less evenly across the world at the arbitrary date of 4000 BC. In real-world history, Europeans crushed Native Americans quite easily helped largely by their superior technology and far denser populations. One should be able to do similar conquest on a Terra map.

The only way the game could possibly represent technologically backwards chiefdoms with low population is through the use of barbarians. To use AI civilizations would upset the whole premise. The term "barbarian," although as someone else has noted, really means, at root, "foreigner," has come to be racist; it is really the only thing about the Terra maps that could be supposed to be racist, but it's necessary in game terms. The premise and the way it plays out have nothing racist about them, given that racism means thinking less of or discriminating against a person on the basis of race. It's not racist to depict the conquest of certain peoples by others equipped with competitive advantages, since that's what actually happened and continues to happen in other forms today.