Terra Nullius no more

[howmanymegs]

Interesting.

I posted below under "whole barbarian nation" and after playing the game today, I have formed a new opinion about "barbarians".

Background
Playing the world as china on noble.
Just winning, sometimes 2nd.
Never been to war with anyone (had to give away a few techs, but I have a bloodless record).
I was the first to "discover" the American continent but there was 7 or so barbarian cities there.

So today......
I started taking the barbarian cities in America which was good because they were highly developed with courthouses, improvements etc. They fought back passionately but I had grenadiers and knights to their swordsmen. You cant negotiate or trade with them so its alright, right? I didn't feel right about it. Especially when I got to Australia (I'm Aussie and am obviously more aquainted with Aussie "colonialism" than American) and there were these "barbarian" cities already established.

Well, needless to say, I made a massive load from the time before I went to America and am determined to win the game without any "colonisation" what so ever. Just because the game doesn't consider my little "barbarian" friends "civilised", doesn't mean that I cant.

Does anyone else play the game like me (to change history for the better)?

I, for one, want to put in a vote for the Aussie Indigenous population to have their own civ in future expansions.

 

[howmanymegs]

PS, Although I call them my "friends", all they want to do is attack me.

I think its wrong for the game to allow them to get highly developed cities and then be portrayed as "uncivilised".

 

[Finite Monkey]

Hah, I like that you left them alone. I usually do as well. Usually don't need the production and part of me likes that they have a peaceful little thing going out there by themselves. That or I just like waiting to get them real good with the nuclear bombs later. BEHOLD SIMPLE SAVAGES THE SUN GOD HAS CHOOSEN TO END YOUR WORLD!!!

In actuality I like that the barbarians put up a much better fight. In the game I am playing now I "converted" the city Goth to my ways. It is now one of the crowns of my empire and founded Christianity not so long ago. Theres a thought for you.

Going along with your no colonization policy would you consider cultural take over acceptable or is that no good as well?

 

[S.SubZero]

You're not attacking them to subjugate them, you are attacking their leaders in order to free the common people from.. uh.. oppression! Yeah! And uh.. I'm sure there are WMD's involved somehow.

The barbarian leaders are ruthless and aggressive yet lack any compassion or reason. By bringing their cities under your umbrella you guarantee safety and prosperity for the villagers. (sounds good, right?)

 

[Psyringe]

Reminds me to a discussion I had with my girlfriend (who plays Civ3 on lower difficulty so that she doesn't have to fight wars) yesterday.

She: Hey, you waged war against the poor French again!
Me: Erm, I had to. They are ruthless villains.
She: Are they? What did they do?
Me: They attacked one of my cities!
She: Which city?
Me: Erm, Paris ...
She: That's a French city.
Me: Not when they attacked it!

 

[weasel77066]

Psyringe- That cracked me up.
HMM- I think the austrlian aboribals should have a civ represented also. They a one of a kind culture in a major part of the world. However, I do believe in victory through conquest, especially as far as barbarians go. When they start pillaging your villages and burning your farms, what do you say? Oh its OK, thats just part of their culture and they are a product of their environment... he he.. a duh. Besides, you can manage their resources much much better than they can, and bring security, stable employment and modern technology to those that survive. Modern goods (like toaster ovens, denim jeans, and rubiks cubes) should keep them very content. If that doesnt work, get em on whiskey (wines), and theyll lose the energy to pillage. (I can say that cause Im almost half native american)

 

[MagnumPI]

PS, Although I call them my "friends", all they want to do is attack me.

I think its wrong for the game to allow them to get highly developed cities and then be portrayed as "uncivilised".

its just a game man, and they have to make decisions that make for the best game play. You really should become attached to the 1's and 0's or a computer AI. This is a stratagy game and you are free to play it any way you want, but come on man... you really think out of all of the possible civilizations in HISTORY that the aboriginals of aust will make the short list? This is not to say they aren't wonderful people and have had a bad run of things... but all is fair in love and war isn't it?

 

[Viperace]

THe colonization idea that civ4 is trying to bring up is a nice touch. I really missed the good old COLONIZATION, anyone?

It would be nice if future expansion or mod are able to tweak the barbarian so that they represent different 'tribe' (instead of civ), and we can trade/negotiate with them depending on relationship. I miss those friendly Apache, Sioux, Cherokee....

 

[howmanymegs]

Hee hee,

You guys are funny. And I'm a girl, not "man". (I know its hard to comprehend - I get stares every time I go into the computer shop.)

I appreciate your replies. I most agree with Viperace's "tribe" comment so, at least historically speaking, smaller races could be portrayed in a different manner.

My barbarians will live on in peace and harmony. (Until the AI gets them, I suppose.)

 

[Jedoc]

Now I really want to do a mod that deepens the complexity of the barbarians. After all, historically speaking, most of the tribes representing the "barbarians" had relationships with the great empires of the world other than pillage and slaughter. I think it would be fun to have different groups of barbarians that the various civs could negotiate with, trade with, and even hold military alliances with (French and Indian War, anyone?) Plus, deserts wouldn't be quite so useless, as you could build the Glassblower improvement on them, which would provide you with the Glass Beads luxury item. This luxury wouldn't do your civ any good, but you could trade it to the barbarians in exchange for furs, silks, silver, or even copper. You could choose to shelter and protect them, as howmanymegs has chosen, absorb them into your culture through conquest or flipping, or just use them as cheap mercenaries to assault your neighbors, with little or no diplomatic repercussions. "I'm sorry, Isabella, they're a primitive and violent people, and I really don't have any control over them. Rifles? No, I have no idea where they got the rifles from. And, frankly, I'm not sure I like where you're going with this line of speculation..."

Then, of course, there's always the possibility that the tribe or clan you encounter will refuse to treat with you or any other empire, preferring instead to act like the barbarians we know and...know, and fight to the death rather than succumb to the jackbooted heel of your imperialist, patronizing civilization. Or ally themselves with the treacherous Spanish.

What do you think?

 

[Hellequin]

I sitll play COLONIZATION it rocks. They need to remake it though could be amazing.

you should be able to negotiate with babarians

 

[King Flevance]

I sitll play COLONIZATION it rocks. They need to remake it though could be amazing.

you should be able to negotiate with babarians

Wow I almost forgot about Colonization. I had to go make sure I still had it
I may play a game of that again this week. I fit will run on the newer computer. They should definetly change barbarian tribes to this in Civ 4. I dont know how many times I have been hunting down all these civs that want Open Borders with me so I may consider the offer, and find about 3 barb cities between me and them.
Now imagine I could get them to hate these other people and like me! I could probably convince them to apply some pressure on the other civ until I am able to get a decent army mobilized myself. ;P
I think the barbarians on here have more of a chance of being a good ally then the computer because they have no 'victory conditions' and by this would be more loyal towards friendships. If the computer recognized this too, these little bastards may become everyones buddy (or in MP) and be a little greed swine.
Can you imagine losing a city to barbarian culture?

 

[mutax2003]

It will be great to have a mod of various barbarian tribes as playable minor civilizations. They will be restriction to a certain level of technology, i.e. can only advance to longbowman (monarchy) and pikeman stage. However, their more advanced allies can gift them with units, such as musketman, grenadier, or riflemen. In turn, they can help out their allies in war and provide luxury items (i.e. glass beads).

Mutax2003

 

[Piemaster]

Hee hee,

You guys are funny. And I'm a girl, not "man".

Call this a weird question, but is your name Megan and did you used to (still?) play Magic: The Gathering Online?

 

[howmanymegs]

Sorry, I'm Meghann.

And the only online game I used to play is Ultima.

 

[Jedoc]

Yeah, you see what I wrote a few posts ago? About trading with the barbarians and nurturing alliances with them and stuff? Right, blow that. I just played my first Terra map, beat everyone to Optics, and sent a couple of caravels to the new world with explorers. And what do I find there? Those primitive screwheads are camping out on the goody huts. Can't get them to budge for love nor money. So, you know, forget it. I'm researching Astronomy and I'm gonna roll the entire continent. Cheeky bloody indigs!

 

[Penitent]

I like the way they hold onto their settlements. I am playing as england on terra and conquering the new world currently with my knights and swordsmen, once you have taken one city and gotten a foothold on the continent, its only a matter of time before you take it all, especially with great artists to keep other players out. I've gone from leading slightly to a massive unbeatable points lead thanks to all these well developed "free cities" I've obtained. I feel like I'm making it too easy for myself.

What would be fun, is setting up colonies with an initial invasion force spread thinly between 4+ settlements. Then making the colonies defend and build up their own forces to take the contintent with only sparse help from the mainland.

Oh by the way, is each barbarian city independant or do all barbarians effectively fight as one civ?

 

[howmanymegs]

Definately a civ, not a city.

I took one city and had 2 grenadiers and a knight left who then had to defend the city from a 20 turn barrage of troops pouring in from neighbouring cities.

AND they pillaged everything.

 

[Alphawolf]

Now I really want to do a mod that deepens the complexity of the barbarians. After all, historically speaking, most of the tribes representing the "barbarians" had relationships with the great empires of the world other than pillage and slaughter. I think it would be fun to have different groups of barbarians that the various civs could negotiate with, trade with, and even hold military alliances with (French and Indian War, anyone?) Plus, deserts wouldn't be quite so useless, as you could build the Glassblower improvement on them, which would provide you with the Glass Beads luxury item. This luxury wouldn't do your civ any good, but you could trade it to the barbarians in exchange for furs, silks, silver, or even copper. You could choose to shelter and protect them, as howmanymegs has chosen, absorb them into your culture through conquest or flipping, or just use them as cheap mercenaries to assault your neighbors, with little or no diplomatic repercussions. "I'm sorry, Isabella, they're a primitive and violent people, and I really don't have any control over them. Rifles? No, I have no idea where they got the rifles from. And, frankly, I'm not sure I like where you're going with this line of speculation..."

Then, of course, there's always the possibility that the tribe or clan you encounter will refuse to treat with you or any other empire, preferring instead to act like the barbarians we know and...know, and fight to the death rather than succumb to the jackbooted heel of your imperialist, patronizing civilization. Or ally themselves with the treacherous Spanish.

What do you think?

My response is me thinks this is great idea O Great Jedoc. You should send this to Fraxis.

 

[Sirian]

I'm glad you guys are having fun with Terra.