Terrain Improvements

[collin_stp]

Since there are now a ton of threads, I worry that I have duplicated, but I guess that is the way it is.

First, my biggest complaints about the current terrain improvements:
The world gets covered in rail, deforestation is too rampant (somewhat realistic, but not every land square outside of tundra), and after your territory is railed, all of your workers just clean up pollution, and nothing else.

So, here are a few early suggestions, I hope other better ones will follow:
Take out rail and road bonuses for terrain. Or make it so that there are bonuses to adjacent tiles, so that you have many roads, but not the entire world coveed.

Have more improvements. I know that civ CTP may have overdone this, but give upgradable mines and irrigation. This could replace the rail improvement. I also think that some variant of farms would be nice. Then your grassland or plains would change appearance after it was worked. (it may look cultivated, etc.)

Finally, there should be a forest improvement, that allows you to keep a forest, but get more out of it. You need forests for raw materials in real life, maybe some improved way of getting these from the forest. Maybe you can irrigate the forests, or in the modern age, plant special genetically engineered forests. I don't know 100%, but something that can keep a few of them around, or replenish them in the later stages of the game.

 

[Philips beard]

Interesting ideas!

Especially making some production dependent on wood resources. But then it must be possible to import timber by nations short of wood, as the english became after building their large, dominating wooden fleets!

Pharhaps the forest should disappear after x turns of exploit, then your workers would have to re-plant new forests!

 

[collin_stp]

I don't know if it should necessarily be like warcraft or age of empires, where it would be a depleating resource (maybe, though), but at the very minimum, there should be forest improvements, so they don't all just get cut down throughout the game.

 

[akhicks]

What about water resources. I mean a whole host of features in the game could be implemented. Finding fresh water resources could or using the water resoureces wisely could interesting game concepts.

 

[MMRegent]

collin_stp -- I like your ideas there - especially the bit about needing the raw materials for production.

One thing I would add is that maybe the production bonus from roads and railroad bonuses should maybe be limited instead of eliminated, because producing and especially accumulating gold (in light of science research and upgrade costs which eat up $) - is already one of the hardest parts of the game.

Maybe they could focus the bonus on a purpose (rather than merely just giving a bonus for every square with road or rail) so that for instance, you get a larger bonus for every two cities or colonies that are connected. This way, bonuses would be sought by creating domestic trade routes, and once they were established, there would be no need to go off and build roads all over areas not commonly traveled. Those squares could then be used for forests and your raw materials development idea!

 

[Bilko]

Having the world covered in road, and then rail gives a very accurate picture of what urbanized areas looki like in real life. There are towns and villages in all of those squares, they just aren't shown on the map. Take a look at an areal view of any non-desert area in the states or Europe, and you'll see what I mean.
As for forests, I think the best way to keep them around would be to make them produce 2 food and 2 shields, with the ability to mine and rail them so they produce 2/4. But, don't allow people to plant new forests within their borders: It's kind of hard to plant a forest in an area which is already urbanized. They should, however be able to plant forests outside of their borders if they really want to.

 

[Shyrramar]

I think the reason why farmlands were taken away and why railroad-bonuses were introduced was to make the game more enjoyable and simple. Now if we add upgraded mines and upgraded irrigations, then we would have more work for the poor workers - which would have the same (but on grander scale) effect on gameplay as railroads now: it's only railing, railing and railing for the ten or so turns after the discovery of steam power.

Now the railroads in effect combine upgraded mines, upgraded irrigation and upgraded roads, so you don't have to build them all. And that is what I call simplifying a game and making it more playable. I think it would be a terrible mistake to let go of that idea and (re-)introduce upgradable irrigation and mining.

Now about the forests, it would be nice to have some improvement in forests too. The problem is this: what? What is the improvement that makes the forests more worthwhile in modern ages? It wouldn't do to make forests 2/2, as it is simply unrealistic to have forests produce as much food as grasslands. 1/2 is fine by me. Some improvement could make it 2/3, perhaps.

 

[rcoutme]

In the games that I play that I have modified, I allow the forest to be mined (simulating a forest actually having logging as an ongoing business). The mine adds one shield, so in despotism it won't do anything for you unless the forest square has a resource that adds more shields.

The original problem that I had with this was that mined hills/mountains and mined forest gave out the same shields. I changed this by giving the mountains/hills more shields from mining (even though this had the effect of giving extra in despotism).

 

[Quasar1011]

Originally posted by collin_stp
Finally, there should be a forest improvement, that allows you to keep a forest, but get more out of it. You need forests for raw materials in real life, maybe some improved way of getting these from the forest. Maybe you can irrigate the forests, or in the modern age, plant special genetically engineered forests. I don't know 100%, but something that can keep a few of them around, or replenish them in the later stages of the game.

This is do-able now, by modding the game. Landmark forests allow us to give extra shields from them, if we mod them as such. Plus, you can add timber as a resource, as I have done. What I have not done, but which could be modded, is to add lumberyard as a city improvement. Here's a screenshot from my current modded game:

 

[Ballazic]

How about improving farmland dividends by city improvements instead of workers. How about tunnels and bridges.

 

[Gogf]

You can't add terrain improvements.

 

[MattII]

In CivIV terrain improvements and terrain itself should be more closely linked, eg. instead of having generic build time multipliers, give each terrain specific multipliers for each improvement, so a road costs 4 turns to build on grassland, but 5-6 on desert because of all the extra footings and thing which are needed, but both terrains are still one movement each

You should also be able to add or delete improvements and you should have a much greater control over them, eg. you have a structures type ability list for things such as, sees two spaces, costs worker, airbase, etc. Commerce, Food and Production would not be in the list since they would be modified on a terrain basis, like production time. Movement Rate would taken out of general settings and put into the improvements menu.

 

[Ballazic]

Ya I agree but i am worried people are tring to kill our game. I mean some of these threads scare me. I want to add "Sid meier do not read. See no evil and see no evil"

 

[Denarr]

Something that seems to be missing from this equation is that forests give a production benefit by being cut down.
If you don't cut down a forest, there is no lumber; if you manage the forest, there is lumber for a long time, theoretically forever; if you cut down the forest, there is a lot of lumber right away, but the forest is gone.
If you put food plants in the forest, you reduce the amount of lumber that can be taken from the forest, and this reduces the production value of the forest.
Declaring the forest a National Parkland could increase the happiness and/or financial/cultural value to the city, but at the cost of the production value from the forest (no lumber.)