TGOM 02 - The Grumpy Old Monk and the Ancient Crone go to Alpha Centauri

Also, one minor gripe about the save naming, please name it as something like TGOM2 instead of the default civ3 name, this can cause confusion if you already have a save of that name in your saves directory.
I apologize. I have a completely separate folder named TGOM2 that I put SG saves into so I don't get confused and I never play 2 games with one civ at the same time. I guess I wasn't thinking about how it might confuse anyone else, and when I upload a save, it comes from the regular save directory. I have a very complex Civ filing system that would probably make other people a bit :crazyeye: , but works well for me.

Could you (or someone) tell me the best way to rename the file for uploading? Do you save it somewhere else first? or do you just rename it in the regular save directory?

It would sure be nice if Civ4 has a way of allowing a person to determine how they want all of their saves named for a single entire game, instead of reverting to the default each time. :hmm: Sometimes I'd like to play 2 separate games with the same civ at around the same time.

Edited for misstatement.
 
Question for the team: Do you want to push Hammi into the sea at this stage, or do you want to keep him around until the beginning of the Modern Era for that free tech he'll get?

I've got an idea for a little combined arms twist that would be a lot of fun, but it'll work a lot better against leg infantry than mech... if Hammi's got no oil (please confirm) then it would work right into the early Modern Era.

...but I'll give fair warning - it would be a fast and furious fight. :mischief:

To those who PM'd me regarding the tactical stuff - I'll work with you in PMs (there were two, and I asked for interest from three before spamming up this thread...)
 
@gmharriet: The way I re-name saves is when I go to save them I change the name to the name of the SG plus the year, that seems to be the almost universal format here.

@scoutscout: What I was thinking of would be to gift hammi our island city up north, then go to war with him to push him off the continent, thereby getting the best of both worlds, a continent to ourselves and still having hammi's free tech around at the start of the MA.
 
scoutsout said:
...but I'll give fair warning - it would be a fast and furious fight. :mischief:

To those who PM'd me regarding the tactical stuff - I'll work with you in PMs (there were two, and I asked for interest from three before spamming up this thread...)

Spam away Sir Scout. I won't say anything about threadjacking and it fits the theme
 
Scoutsout, I meant to send a PM but got distracted (see below). I don't have a specific request -- although I guess I would like to hear what the Admiral was talking about with Harriet -- but please post in the thread whatever you were going to discuss via PM.

Got Civ4 yesterday, so I have found the new pit into which I will pour all of my free time (and more of my not-free time than I'd care to admit). I'm sure everyone who's interested has read the reviews, so I'll limit my OT observations to a quotation from Mr. Gump: "I like it a lot." Oh, and Sulla's walkthrough, which is linked to from the main CFC page, is very good.

(I am happy to talk about it to anyone who's interested, but that's probably better suited to another thread or PMs.)
 
Bede said:
Spam away Sir Scout. I won't say anything about threadjacking and it fits the theme
Here are a couple of 'Socratic Method' questions for the team to consider:
  1. What can Cavalry do that Tanks cannot? (But Panzers and Modern Armor can...)
  2. How can a one-hit-point Paratrooper (or Cavalry) capture a city?
Consider these two questions, and see if you can come up with a campaign plan that uses those two tenets and considers the following:
  • War Wearingess
  • Technology
  • Resources
...and one more thing - don't forget the combat settlers!
 
scoutsout said:
What can Cavalry do that Tanks cannot? (But Panzers and Modern Armor can...)
Attack a city from three tiles away -- i.e. outside the borders of the civ that owns the city.
scoutsout said:
How can a one-hit-point Paratrooper (or Cavalry) capture a city?
I'm not sure, but given where you are going with this, it must be: take a city whose defenders have been destroyed some other way (do air units have lethal bombardment? I haven't used them in ages so I don't recall).
scoutsout said:
Consider these two questions, and see if you can come up with a campaign plan that uses those two tenets and considers the following:
  • War Wearingess
  • Technology
  • Resources
...and one more thing - don't forget the combat settlers!
I think I know what combat settlers are for -- push borders as close to enemy cities as possible so you can rail right up to the border. My guess is that WW plays into the speed at which this kind of campaign can proceed -- with enough units with all their movement points you could theoretically conquer an entire civ in one turn, right? So if you have enough units, WW is hardly a factor. Tech and Resources are for rails?

Am I in the right ballpark?
 
eotinb said:
I guess I would like to hear what the Admiral was talking about with Harriet -- but please post in the thread whatever you were going to discuss via PM.
I tried to reply this morning before work, but the server was so slow and I couldn't even get into a reply screen. :(

Admiral K suggested I move workers to the front along with the artillery and protected by defensive unit(s). Previously, I'd always kept workers a tile or two behind the front lines for safety and then roaded/railed (I'm going to use use the word road for both) after the battle was over.

By moving them with the artillery, they can road on the first turn if they have movement points left and are in our borders or neutral territory. If in enemy territory, they can road after the town is captured and (with enough of them) even move to the other side of the town and road before the arty is moved forward toward the next town to be attacked. Doing this after capturing Delphi in this game allowed the arty enough movement to get close enough in one turn to bombard Athens and capture it with the army/cavs which could move right next to it. There were 3 tiles surrounding Athens, so the arty couldn't have shelled without those rails eliminating the movement points, so railing up to Delphi's border allowed the arty to move into the 1st outer tile near Athens in the same turn Delphi was captured.

The Admiral and I didn't discuss the details of any particular battle, but it had never occurred to me to have workers so close to the fighting. I took the idea and ran with it, learning how NOT to do it in the N/W penninsula, and improving my tactics with each battle. We were very fortunate to have LOTS of workers and infantry to cover them. I also spent a lot of gold upgrading the cannons to arty for the 2-tile bombard range. I was also lucky to have so many battles in one turnset and the opportunity to learn from my mistakes (like getting the workers right up to a city and having no movement left to either road that turn or to move the cannons close enough. :rolleyes: )

Thanks, Admiral K. :love:
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by scoutsout
How can a one-hit-point Paratrooper (or Cavalry) capture a city?

I'm not sure, but given where you are going with this, it must be: take a city whose defenders have been destroyed some other way (do air units have lethal bombardment? I haven't used them in ages so I don't recall).
Yes, bombers have lethal bombardment, and I've just walked into empty cities with a single unit after destroying its defense. Even a conscript warrior could take a city at that point.

For the rest of the questions, I can't improve on Brad's answers. With enough workers and war settlers I guess you could take over an entire pangea map. :cool:
 
I think you are all beginning to grasp the important role of bombardment in Civ combat. In my mind it is the keystone of the arch. (I won't even go into how I felt in the Mag7+1 game when Joanie captured 75% of the artillery on my watch. Luckily Sirian the Bold, Lucky and Good followed me and was able to get them all back!)

The way I like to build my advancing stacks of troops hinges on how quickly I can move the artillery portion. But in general at Emperor you can capture a city with hardly any losses if you have 9 bombardment units, 9 best of class defenders, and three to six fast attack. Tactics change a little through the eras as the fast attack units get faster and more powerful but in general that type of advancing force will overwhelm the opponent's defenses with minimal losses.

Bombardment has another role that few mention but it is the great odds equalizer as well as a strong defense weakener. Hit a town often enough and you can reduce the population below 6pop which removes the metro/city/town defense bonuses. That is a much easier way of getting the RNG gods on your side than sacrificing hard-to-find (in my case hard-to-catch) virgins.
 
@ all - some of us old farts know what this means
I've got an idea

I'm donning the kevlar and running for the shelter. :lol:

@ bede - let me know when to shut up. can I drop what I think is a hint a bout the WW and resources?
 
Looking at the save and have a plan sort of forming, along with a few questions.

Unfortunately we have an 18 turn deal with hammi going, so unless we say that since our rep is already blown we don't care there will be no war with him until late in cleverhandle's turnset at the very earliest (unless I can convince him to declare by giving him a boot order). Because of this, wouldn't sometime during my turnset/early in clever's turnset be a good time to revolt to commie? Or are going to remain republic for the whole game. Personally I'd prefer commie since we have several towns such as ashur, alexandria, and samarra (ok, will have) that could become quite productive under commie, plus the extra unit support would be welcome since we are going to probably need at least 30-40 more units than what we currently have to be able to quickly take out babylon and we already have the courthouse structure in place to take care of a lot of the corruption. I also like the vet spies that commie comes with, quite good for stealing free tech's...

As far as the oil situation goes, the only people who have oil (abe and shaka) currently don't "know" that they have oil. This could change any minute, but I don't think we're ever going to see hammi with tanks or planes.

Another question I have is whether or not we should switch all the artillery builds to bombers? We currently have 24 artillery and 2 cannons that I'll track down and upgrade, which I think is enough until we get approximately the same number of bombers built.

The idea I have for the attack on hammi involves making 2 attack forces, each going down a seperate coastline and then comming back up the middle when they meet. 1 force would have all the artillery covered by infantry/mech infantry with a few tanks and most of the cavalry in it, while the other force would consist of tanks plus 2-3 mech's for cover with whatever cavalry isn't in the other stack, with all the bombers tasked to do artillery duty for the fast moving stack.

The other thing I noticed while doing a little preliminary playing with specialists is that there are several cities with 1 pop that are still growing that have a taxman as the only citizen that if switched to an engineer will cut their build times by at least 25+ turns.

Please give feedback on these ideas, I'm not planning on playing until later tonight.
 
@Admiral K: :p
Bede said:
I think you are all beginning to grasp the important role of bombardment in Civ combat. In my mind it is the keystone of the arch.
I agree with you on both counts, Brother Bede.
... Mag7+1 .... Sirian the Bold, Lucky and Good...
Sirian the insightful, brilliant, and incredibly focused general. Aside from being the most innovative campaign I've read since "Sir Pleb and the Funnel of Doom", his focus on the objective was incredible. While Sirian is one of those who truly breathes "rare air" when it comes to this game, we could all learn from the way he focused on the objective; which was cutting off Joanie's oil supply- right down to counting her tanks the turn after he thought he'd already achieved the objective...
eotinb said:
Am I in the right ballpark?
Yes, you just hit a nice triple. Let's see if your teammates can bring home the go-ahead run. What you got right:

  • The value of Cavalry speed, even though some would say they're "obsolete".
  • The suspicion of lethal aerial bombardment. This was confirmed by gmaharriet, who also nailed it on the tactical implications. :thumbsup:
  • The value of the combat settler... though the "tunnelling" and one-turn pangea conquest tactics described in a certain War Academy article are regarded by many as an exploit... (ethics and values are another discussion...)
@eotinb: Here are the things that kept you from hitting this out of the park:
eotinb said:
...So if you have enough units, WW is hardly a factor
You're close. War weariness is controlled more by having short decisive wars. While while having lots of units is nice, a large standing army will wreck the economy of any government that suffers war weariness....

It's not about "having enough units", it's about using what you have to maximum effect. In other words, using more lethal tactics.

Kill more than you lose; capture cities (fewer enemy replacements/reinforcements) and you will eventually have infinitely more units than your enemy. (Any number divided by zero equals infinity....)
eotinb said:
Tech and Resources are for rails?
This one is the only swing you took that you muffed. :mischief:

Hints: Think of an industrial era resource, and a first-tier modern era tech... and how the two might interact to make Cavalry obsolete....

...and how that might play into your campaign plans... or your diplomatic/economic plans that support your campaign plans...

I see General Mayhem posted some thoughts I need to read...
 
unless I can convince him to declare by giving him a boot order
or doing an immediate steal and failing

The other thing I noticed while doing a little preliminary playing with specialists is that there are several cities with 1 pop that are still growing that have a taxman as the only citizen that if switched to an engineer will cut their build times by at least 25+ turns.

I like that, but your mentor may not
 
General Mayhem said:
The other thing I noticed while doing a little preliminary playing with specialists is that there are several cities with 1 pop that are still growing that have a taxman as the only citizen that if switched to an engineer will cut their build times by at least 25+ turns.
I didn't do the math on the cost of paying maintenance on what eventually gets built, but if used to just accumulate shields toward changing to instant settlers, you wouldn't even want the buildings to complete...hence the taxmen. OTOH, if we may switch to Commie, then having productive buildings becomes important. I think we need to discuss which direction we plan to go with the government. In addition, those taxmen were sometimes scientists, depending on the state of our research.

Also, some of the one-citizen specialists were originally created while we were at war and trying to get rid of foreigners. I wasn't entirely clear on how that works, so I may not have done what Bede intended. (wouldn't be the first time. :mischief: )
 
General Mayhem mentioned both the resource and the unit I was concerned with, though not in the same context...

More questions for the team:

Compare and contrast the two bombardment units: Bomber and Artillery. Each has advantages over the other. How can you balance the strengths and weaknesses so that they compliment each other?

I'll go ahead and give you one weakness of the bomber, because I want you guys to do a little spatial analysis. (That's one o' them fifty dollar words with a five dollar meaning: I want you to look at the map to answer this next one.)

One weakness of the bomber is that it cannot move and bomb on the same turn. You either use it, or move it. Having said that... where would you concentrate your bombers so that they would have maximum effect without moving them? In other words, where can you base your bombers to strike the maximum number of enemy cities before you have to move them?
 
scoutsout said:
Compare and contrast the two bombardment units: Bomber and Artillery. Each has advantages over the other. How can you balance the strengths and weaknesses so that they compliment each other?
Artillery hits only units before population or infrastructure, whereas bombers are kinda random about what they destroy. OTOH, bombers have longer range when you don't have rails to move the artillery within 2 tiles of your target.

I want you to look at the map to answer this next one.)

One weakness of the bomber is that it cannot move and bomb on the same turn. You either use it, or move it. Having said that... where would you concentrate your bombers so that they would have maximum effect without moving them? In other words, where can you base your bombers to strike the maximum number of enemy cities before you have to move them?
I assume that's after the first rebase after being built. I didn't look at the map, and I'd guess either Athens or Dye City for a land base, but I believe our next tech will allow carriers. The carriers can be moved and then the bombing runs can change targets fairly often without rebasing. 99% of the fighting I've ever done was at Warlord or Regent level and being so far ahead of the AI in tech that this worked well. At Emperor...I dunno.
 
Compare and contrast the two bombardment units: Bomber and Artillery. Each has advantages over the other. How can you balance the strengths and weaknesses so that they compliment each other?
oh, oh, Mr. Kotter, I know this one... :crazyeye:
 
I would base our bombers at dye city, I believe bombers based there can strike all of babylon.

To use the bombers and artillery to compliment each other what I typically do is use the artillery to redline and then have the bombers finish off the defenders so that I can take the city with one unit.
 
Now for some Mulligan Stew:


Hiawatha wants a space ship, not bigger bows and arrows.

Space race victories are about two things and two things only: cash flow (gpt) and resources (rubber, aluminium and uranium are the three you need).

So, war with Hammi is certainly an option but rather pointless now unless we want territory. So let's do the math: Every new village is worth 4gpt in the kitty plus the value of the tax collections when the village gets to town size. so figure 10gpt per town terrain permitting. Hammi controls 21 cities so if we cram in the towns we can probably get 35 in the space he now occupies, each one pop6 with three tax collectors. That is 350gpt after some unknown turns of warfare plus the time it takes to grow them up to pop6. Right now, today, Hammi will gladly pay us more than half that for Flight, and who knows how much more in the future.

So economics argues against war with the Hamster right now. Now if he holds resources we need to launch which we won't know for another 25 turns at best then the conclusion changes. But during those 25 turns he can pay for a ton of ugraded troops as well as some cash rushes to build a modern era army.

To answer scout's tech and resource question: oil, rubber and computers are the three factors that obsolete the dashing cavalryman.

War with Hammi will not have any impact on our reputation as he is paying us and not vice-versa. It just means giving up the gold......

On the government thing Communism is a non-starter for us unless we want to change our goal to domination. You need a handful of shield productive towns to build space ship parts in a timely fashion and you really, really need the commerce kicker from a representative government and the ability to cash rush if you have sudden need for military. I have played it all the ways from Sunday and Communism is the winner if you want to conquer the world, but it slows you down badly when you want to leave it behind. The shields gained in the outlying towns do not make up for the commerce lost overall. You can boost income using taxguys but tax collections do not convert to either added income or beakers in towns which have multiplier buildings.

The war weariness impact of a representative government is another overblown concern. Manage your citizens properly, keep control of luxuries, don't expose your troops in enemy territory for more than a turn or two, don't lose any cities to the enemy and keep battle casualties down by the intelligent use of combined arms and you can fight hundreds of turns of Republican warfare and still celebrate WLKTD. And run 6-8 turn research. At least at Emperor, it is way different at higher levels, though still feasible but it requires a devotion to the details of the game that very few can summon up and insights which I may have but find difficult to share.

scoutsout said:
While Sirian is one of those who truly breathes "rare air" when it comes to this game, we could all learn from the way he focused on the objective; which was cutting off Joanie's oil supply- right down to counting her tanks the turn after he thought he'd already achieved the objective...

One of the reasons that Sirian can breathe that rare air is that power of focus. So focus on the objective.

@General Mayhem

I happen to prefer a less complicated approach to the demise of an enemy, mostly because I rarely have the surplus troops to make a pincer move effective. Put 'em all in a unified command and head straight for Babylon would be my simple-minded solution to that problem.
 
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