TGOM 02 - The Grumpy Old Monk and the Ancient Crone go to Alpha Centauri

[General Mayhem]

You're right, war with hammi is kind of pointless unless he holds aluminum or uranium, though isn't he on our list for demanding republic?

Its getting a little late for me to play tonight, so I'll start doing turns tomorrow afternoon/evening.

 

[cleverhandle]

Hey folks. Sorry I've been kind of absent lately - just a little busy with work, and then picking up Civ4 yesterday, which of course helped not a bit. I'm going to be out of town and away from the Net till Saturday night at the earliest, so if the General finishes up early in the weekend you can go ahead and skip/swap me if I haven't checked back in yet.

As for the game, I think that Hammi-war and no-Hammi-war both have some selling points. As Bede points out, there's not going to be much of an economic advantage towards knocking him out. We'd get some more specialist towns, but it's already pretty late in the IA and they wouldn't have time to develop very much before we'd hit launch. For the same reason, I don't see any value to revolting to Communism any more - it's a great government (IME, better than the representative ones for research when properly managed), but it takes time for all those previously corrupt towns to get large and built-up enough to make up for losing the commerce bonus.

On the other hand, flat out owning a continent simplifies military management and can further cut military upkeep. And Hammi is developed enough that a late-game declaration from him could push us into an irritating full-on modern war that, while I'm quite sure we would win, would make for some very time-consuming turnsets. Taking him down while we have the advantage of tanks and bombers might be a lot more efficient. Like Bede, I would pursue such an objective through a simple SoD. I don't relish complicated military tactics if I don't really need them, and I think that we're entirely in control at this point. But if you all want to do something flashy, I'm sure I would learn from it.

 

[gmaharriet]

I don't relish complicated military tactics if I don't really need them, and I think that we're entirely in control at this point.

I'm inclined to agree. Straightforward military action is still a challenge for me. If we were in the middle of a complicated campaign when my turnset came around, I'd have to stop at almost every turn to ask, "Now what do I do?", and I do enough of that already.

I'd like to get into an AW training game after this is finished, and then I could focus more on just fighting without also having to think about how to further a space ship build. I love to learn new things, but I go into overload if I take on too many goals at one time, get frustrated and forget to take care of important details.

 

[scoutsout]

To answer scout's tech and resource question: oil, rubber and computers are the three factors that obsolete the dashing cavalryman.

You really don't want to send Cavalry against even redlined Mech Infantry (a fast defender). That could get ugly.

I'd guess either Athens or Dye City for a land base, but I believe our next tech will allow carriers. The carriers can be moved and then the bombing runs can change targets fairly often without rebasing.

Your use of carriers has its tactical advantages; using these units would be a lot more valuable when invading another continent. Unless playing a 'pelago map (or playing as America in the WWII Pacific Conquest scenario) naval power is usually a secondary consideration.

In other words, I'd base the bombers on land, and spend the shields on more bombers rather than Carriers...but that's based on this scenario, not the amount of warmongering either of us has done at what level. Your application of carriers is tactically sound.

I would base our bombers at dye city, I believe bombers based there can strike all of babylon.

IIRC, Bombers have a range of 10. You might be overlooking the combat power of a non-combat unit. Have a closer look at Dye City. If you were to build an airfield on the tile SE of Dye City, what Babylonian cities could you hit with bombers that you could not hit if you based them in the city? (Rhetorical question...look at it and think about it, but I'm trying to close this tactical discussion so you guys can get back to your game...)

To use the bombers and artillery to compliment each other what I typically do is use the artillery to redline and then have the bombers finish off the defenders so that I can take the city with one unit.

That is exactly what I was looking for when I asked how the two might compliment each other.

It appears you won't be cranking up the Iroquois war machine at this stage. Pity, it might've been a fun campaign. But Bede is right, it could distract or detract from the strategic objective, which is an early spaceship win.

War-gaming scenarios leads to better warfighting. I believe hashing out these ideas has put you guys in a better mental position to fight a modern era war if it comes to that.

...back to lurking.

 

[General Mayhem]

Played 3 turns so far, breaking for dinner and may or may not play more tonight, some friends and I may be playing something else. I did notice that we have 3 mounties, 3 or 4 archers, and a couple swords lying around. The upgrade cost on them is rather steep, so does anyone particularly mind if they go towards speeding up cultural builds in our border towns? Also, I noticed that we are building a lot of temples. Shouldn't we be going for libraries instead for the extra science at the same maintinence cost?

 

[gmaharriet]

Played 3 turns so far, breaking for dinner and may or may not play more tonight, some friends and I may be playing something else. I did notice that we have 3 mounties, 3 or 4 archers, and a couple swords lying around. The upgrade cost on them is rather steep, so does anyone particularly mind if they go towards speeding up cultural builds in our border towns? Also, I noticed that we are building a lot of temples. Shouldn't we be going for libraries instead for the extra science at the same maintinence cost?

I think it makes sense to disband the outdated units. I also agree on making libs rather than temples, especially since libs generate more culture as well as science. I left behind a mix of builds at the end of my turns, because we hadn't yet discussed the possibility of going Commie, and all of the border builds were just sorta placeholders. I'm not clear on just how much science we'd get from the libs, since the border towns would be very corrupt. If we're just going to turn them into specialist farms, maybe aquas or harbors would make more sense even than libs to promote growth. I've never done specialist farms before, so I'm not sure of all the considerations.

BTW, my copy of Civ4 just arrived in the mail. I may be playing something else tonight also.

 

[Bede]

If you have concern about cultural borders in the border towns, or can't fill gaps with settlers, than by all means build temples out there. They really shouldn't be necessary as conversion risk is very controllable with the tools in CAII or CrpMapstat by simply filling the garrisons to 0 flip risk. And I think we have enough troopers to do it and the borders need heavy garrisons in any case. So the TGOM's recommendation is skip the culture out there and use troops instead.

Remember the discussion re libraries? If the town can't get 10 net gold forget the library and use scientists if you need to boost the research yield. Otherwise make half the citizens tax collectors and send the money home.

I'd like to get into an AW training game after this is finished, and then I could focus more on just fighting without also having to think about how to further a space ship build. I love to learn new things, but I go into overload if I take on too many goals at one time, get frustrated and forget to take care of important details.

One of the joys if this game is that it allows for the challenge of balancing competing priorities. And personally I derive the most enjoyment out of keeping pop20 cities happy and productive, researching like mad, building the SS, all while fighting an intercontinental war that just won't end on my terms.

AW games are fun but I find they have fewer moving parts and are intrinsically less interesting. That is one of the reasons that my GOTM scores are lower quartile. Becasue the scoring mechanism in GOTM rewards early finishes with high population counts and high territory values, they are mostly warfare from the time the last productive town goes down until you control everthing one tile short of the domination limit. I always stop warring once I control the resources needed to achieve the goal, usually SS or diplomatic.

And that brings me full circle again as to why I prefer the SS victory over all others. It means you get to experience the full range of possibilities that the game offers.

 

[eotinb]

If we heed TGOM's advice (and woe unto s/he who does not ), the very obsolete units are still useful as garrisons. In fact, I seem to remember having this exact conversation about 5 pages back.

 

[General Mayhem]

Thing is there isn't much useful left to build in our core, so we can replace those obsoletes with infantry who can actually do something besides garrison, and still keep unit support the same.

 

[gmaharriet]

One of the joys if this game is that it allows for the challenge of balancing competing priorities. And personally I derive the most enjoyment out of keeping pop20 cities happy and productive, researching like mad, building the SS, all while fighting an intercontinental war that just won't end on my terms.

I'm sure I will too once I get the hang of the individual components. I was far more comfortable with the last turnset, because I've done a bit of Industrial Age war before. I went into a cold sweat with the raging barbs, because I'd never done it before and it was all completely new to me. Same with that first battle south of Sparta...I just didn't know what I was doing and no clue about how it would turn out.

Success seems to breed success, and I'm doing better and have more confidence in my personal games now...even trying some raging barbs.

 

[General Mayhem]

I've played 8 turns now, and we just hit the modern age, and I'm not quite sure which research path to take. I think we should get computers first, then research miniaturization to get the internet, then gift all scientific civ's up to the MA and use mini to get their free techs. Also, take a look at the pic below and see if you think we should found rubberpoach just NE of the mountain.

 

[gmaharriet]

I'm not sure on the tech path. We'll also need Rocketry and Fission to find out if we even have aluminum and/or uranium. If we have to fight one of the AI's for those, it might be easier if they're still a bit backwards. Just thinking "out loud" here, as I've never gifted a civ into another age to get their free techs, and it might be a good thing for me to learn. I'd wait for Bede's input.

I'd most definitely use the settler to poach the rubber. Hammi has 2 sources, so he is less likely to come after us for it. The rest are on the other continent and would mean a trans-oceanic war if Shaka wouldn't trade one of his...a war not to be desired.

 

[Bede]

Research to miniturization is good, and the gift forward is also a good plan.

On the question of rubber poach - do we need a source or will that deny rubber to the Hamster or do we have a potential trade partner who will pay us many monies for it.

We are on the home stretch and need to start thinking hard about build priorties so that the SS parts complete in a timely fashion. Ideal is to time the part to the technology so it works like a six chair barber shop, no waiting.

 

[General Mayhem]

Turn Log:

Turn 0 (1345 A.D.)

Play with the specialists in the cities with size 1 pop that were currently specialists, changing them to engineers to get the culture builds done faster. Decide to do an in-depth look at our military, and upgrade both of our cannon's to artillery. We have multiple AA units lying around that I don't think its worth the upgrade costs to guerillas/cavalry, so decide to make a post to determine their fate. From the response to the post I decide to use the 1 in 1 out rule on disbanding them. I check all of our temple builds as per other response to the post and change the hopelessly corrupt cities that aren't on the border to farm configuration and start them on bombers/harbors as appropriate.

Turn 1 (1350 A.D.)

Pollution hits Bedeville, but is instantly cleaned up by a nearby gang of six workers. Also discover some pollution around Clever Springs and clean that up immediately too. Shuffle some units that were outside of cities into the cities along the babylonian border to minimize fliprisk.

Turn 2 (1355 A.D.)

Mayhem City builds bomber, start it on BF medicine due in 10, if Hammi the facist decides to go into war mode it will be a nice bonus and all that Mayhem City really has to build is units anyway. VV finishes factory, start stock exchange for the commerce, Onnotare finishes harbor, start it on bomber since its basically a farm town and change the engineer that was in there to a taxman for a little more cash. Operation jungle chop is now in full swing. Since our massive gpt trade with persia expired, and both persia and hammi have cash but no oil I trade flight to hammi for 1010 gold, WM, TM, and 146 gpt, then sell it to persia for 28 gpt, WM, TM, and 8 gold. We now have all the money in the world and are 2 turns from being complete tech leader again

Turn 3 (1360 A.D.)

Start Bedeville on a bank to get some more maintinence free commerce. HB finishes stock exchange, starts infantry (we only have 33, which I don't think will be enough in case of a hammi sneak attack), Clever Springs finishes army, starts a bank for more free commerce, Cronetown finishes stock exchange, starts infantry, Lurkersville finishes factory, starts bank. We get a palace expansion, only need 2 more now to finish it. Dial back science to 60% for the last turn of MP.

Turn 4 (1365 A.D.)

MP comes in, start MT. Start Salamanca on a bank, El-Amarna finishes market, start it on University, Hiawatha's coal shack finishes aquaduct, start it on market. Play with specialists, and by turning practiacally every specialist of any type that we have into a scientist manage to get research to 4 turns at 90%. Pollution hits the mountain by HB, it will take 3 turns to clear without pulling too many workers off of railing. Load up an extra cav into each of the 3 cavalry armies.

Turn 5 (1370 A.D.)

Eotin Bay finishes stock exchange, start it on infantry, same for smelly sticks, we get the wall street message, scoutsville finishes factory, start it on a bank, Napa Valley finishes aquaduct, start it on a bomber. Toy with specialists again and am able to put most of our most of our converted engineers back to work.

Turn 6 (1375 A.D.)

Bedeville finishes bank, start it on Wall Street, Cronetown finishes Infantry, starts bomber, Tyendenaga finishes stock exchange, starts bomber, Panama City finishes market, starts library, Kiohero finishes market, starts University, Tonawanda finishes settler, starts bomber to go into farm configuration. Toy some more with specialists, discover that I can only turn one scientist into a taxman.

Turn 7 (1380 A.D.)

Salamanca finishes bank, starts stock exchange, HB finishes infantry, starts bomber, Clever Springs finishes bank, starts stock exchange, Smelly sticks finishes infantry, starts another, Abydos finishes bomber, starts a market,
Caughnawaga finishes bank, starts factory, Waystation finishes courthouse, starts aquaduct. The Zulu/America war has now forced both into facism, and pretty much forced america onto its little island Give Zulu Electronics to get us another 20 turns of spices and gems, they didn't have any money, but we needed those luxes and they were only avaliable from them, plus they were the only civ besides america that didn't know electronics. While I'm
trading things around notice that xerxes will give us 21gpt for silks, so make that trade. Toy with specialists to come out exactly right on MT.

Turn 8 (1385 A.D.)

MT comes in, and our cities lose the smokestacks and grow skyscrapers. Start research on computers, due in 7 at 100% research. Eotin Bay finishes infantry, starts on tank, VV finishes stock exchange, starts tank, we get our
next to last palace expansion. Swap Hiawatha's coal shack to a courthouse. Optimize specialists. Found RubberPoach since persia doesn't have rubber and will pay 40+gpt for it.

Turn 9 (1390 A.D.)

Smelly Sticks finishes infantry, starts tank, Lurkersville finishes bank, starts hospital. Optimize the specialists yet again.

Turn 10 (1395 A.D.)

Babylon and Persia decide to gang up on Abe, but I think Abe's pretty safe, the AI has yet to figure out how to be effective with an amphibious landing. Watch a nice parade of infantry leave sparta, probably headed for hammi's
coast. Niagra falls builds library, starts a court, Asyut builds bomber, starts market, Cronetown finishes bomber, starts tank, Tynedenaga finishes bomber, starts tank. Optimize specialists yet again.

Notes to team:

Computers due in 5, be sure to MM specialists every turn, typically 1-5 scientists can turn into taxmen each turn until we start miniaturization, at which point a lot of them will become scientists again. Wall street finishes in 1, Battlefield Medicine in 2. As soon as we get the rubber at Rubberpoach connected Persia should be willing to pay upwards of 40 gpt for it. We still have a couple of archers and 3 MW lying around that I forgot to disband.

The Save

 

[eotinb]

What's the order? We've been all out of whack for a while now. clever, you up?

 

[Bede]

Adn now for something really weird - the roster (band plays rustles and flourishes):

cleverhandle - up
Bede - waiting for another opportunity to upset the apple cart
eotinb - welcome back, and came out swinging
gmharriet - made a castrato out of Alex who is now singing soprano in the cathedral choir
The General - pushed all the right buttons, I think, though I haven't taken that close a look.

 

[gmaharriet]

Looks like you're doing a great job, General M!

Only other comment to make is that, when I asked about building Battlefield Medicine, Bede said it would make a great pre-build for space ship parts. Clever might want to see if he's changed his mind, because the build could still be switched back. I agree that it's great to have when you're at war.

 

[cleverhandle]

Got it. I should be able to play tomorrow night.

On the subject of SS building, I don't really get the need for BM as a pre-build. Or all the previous talk about 32 shield breakpoints or whatever the number was. In every space win I've had, the limiting factor is always tech and not production. Research Computers, Mini, Fission, Eco, Syn Fibers, maybe Nuke Power. By that point, you can probably trade or gift/trade Rocketry, then research Space Flight.

From there on, it's really only the biggest shield cities that are significant. I haven't looked yet, but hopefully we can pull off at least one over 80 spt. That's "A". Start Apollo in A and a Palace in "B" (the next biggest producer) as a pre-build for the 640-shield Exterior. Apollo completes and A starts on the Engine. All that happens while you finish up Superconductor, Laser, and the other stuff you need. While the big guns handle the 640 cost pieces, your regular 50-60 spt cities take care of the little parts once they become available. Especially in Conquests with the need for Robotics, I've always finished everything besides the Stasis Chamber at least 3-5 turns before Robotics comes in. And the Chamber gets a final Palace pre-build so I can complete it the next turn. Maybe I'll keep a Battleship or some other big ticket item ready as a backup in case I'm paranoid about sabotage.

Are there subtleties that I'm missing here?

 

[Bede]

On the subject of SS building, I don't really get the need for BM as a pre-build. Or all the previous talk about 32 shield breakpoints or whatever the number was. In every space win I've had, the limiting factor is always tech and not production. Research Computers, Mini, Fission, Eco, Syn Fibers, maybe Nuke Power. By that point, you can probably trade or gift/trade Rocketry, then research Space Flight.

From there on, it's really only the biggest shield cities that are significant. I haven't looked yet, but hopefully we can pull off at least one over 80 spt. That's "A". Start Apollo in A and a Palace in "B" (the next biggest producer) as a pre-build for the 640-shield Exterior. Apollo completes and A starts on the Engine. All that happens while you finish up Superconductor, Laser, and the other stuff you need. While the big guns handle the 640 cost pieces, your regular 50-60 spt cities take care of the little parts once they become available. Especially in Conquests with the need for Robotics, I've always finished everything besides the Stasis Chamber at least 3-5 turns before Robotics comes in. And the Chamber gets a final Palace pre-build so I can complete it the next turn. Maybe I'll keep a Battleship or some other big ticket item ready as a backup in case I'm paranoid about sabotage.

Are there subtleties that I'm missing here?

You are not missing anything. The point I was trying to get across was the need for a reasonable and coordinated plan.

I always like to get the first available pieces done the same turn Apollo comes in though so that you can move on to the next pieces as the tech comes in. It can a little touchy but it can be done. The problem you have is you need a 400 shield building project for the medium size pieces and those are hard to come by in the Modern Era.

It is also a useful exercise in the use and planning of prebuilds and their relationship with research rates. The techniques are less useful at Emperor in an SG but really crucial at higher levels or when you want a good finish date for the GOTM or the HoF

 

[Admiral Kutzov]

ICBMs as prebuilds?