TGOM 02 - The Grumpy Old Monk and the Ancient Crone go to Alpha Centauri

[Bede]

We want to own Printing Press but we don't want to give away contacts to do it. If you can't get it for a good price from the other continent then turn the research back up and learn it.

The key here is that we know the other continent and will know Printing Press while no one on our continent knows either. That means we can broker contacts as needed, but the direction of trade should be from the other continent to ours. In other words buy contacts, if necessary, from the guy who knows Printing Press, but only sell them to the guy who does not. And if you sell to someone who knows Printing Press, make sure you sell them to his buddies, or at least make sure his buddies lack cash to buy them.

Another approach would be to not trade contacts at all and hope to be in a strong brokering position but I think we are going to need the boost from trading them (that is why I researched Printing Press)

Contacts with Printing and Maps with Navigation are two wonderful sources of cash. There is lots of coin to made by trading both. And with the world laid out as it appears to be we stand to make a ton with them, as communicatiosn between the continents will be limited until Navigation.

Theology got us Fuedalism from Abe.

The west loop will be hard to water unfortunately. The best thing to do there
is build 'ducts and harbors and grow the towns to pop7 for the unit support boost. Then use them to build boats. And, yes, the settler was a heading for the end of the bridge.

We need one more settler out of Mayhem or Bedeville maybe to finish the east.

The troops were piling up in the south to provide a little flip protection against the Greek or the Egpyt, I forget which.

On whether and where to build libraries, do the math. If a courthouse will help and the town on plains so that surplus food is a problem then try that. 10gpt is a guideline only, just remember that to get three beakers from a library you need six uncorrupted, disregarding the building maintenance. And to get six you need twelve, which is only two citizens working as scientists, which in a town that does not have access to commerce bonuses requires six citizens working the fields.

 

[gmaharriet]

Thanks, Bede! I'll play tonight when I get home from work.

 

[gmaharriet]

Sheesh! I hope I did this right so far. I'm still only on turn 1, and we now have PP, Chivalry and Invention. I traded PP to Hammi and Cleo for the other techs, believing that if they have no contact with the other continent, they can only talk to each other, and it brings us to tech parity.

I'm asking for direction from the team, since we haven't discussed our next research path. We can get Education in 10 @50% with +6g or Gunpowder in 7 @ 50% with +6g. Seems like Education would best further our flight to space, but we'll need to protect ourselves too. Or should we go zero research and buy our techs? What say you all???

 

[General Mayhem]

I personally would go for Education in 10 doing self research. What's the kitty look like right now, could it finance some negative research?

 

[gmaharriet]

Kitty has 39 g and 60% research would be at -13gpt. I think I'll go for Education in 10, raising it later if I can. It's all being financed by our trades of PP. We only had 8g after buying PP.

 

[eotinb]

Harriet, I think the original idea (in Bede's explanation -- assuming I read him correctly) was to not trade PP around so that we could sell contact with one or more of the civs on the other continent to our neighbors and not have them trade it around. Of course, what's done is done and all this really means is that now trading contacts is just like trading techs -- in that the only thing keeping the AIs from trading amongst themselves is trade bait instead of the additional barrier of the tech limitation. Did you check what Hammi and Cleo would have given you for contact with somebody from overseas? Just curious.

As for the current research strategy, Ed makes sense. On the other hand, it would be nice to know where the salt is so we can plan accordingly. How many of our core cities will have libs and markets by the time you'd finish self-researching Ed vs. how many more if you were to delay delay Ed for Gunpowder? No sense hurrying to Ed if you aren't going to build Universities right away.

 

[gmaharriet]

Brad, Hammi and Cleo were willing to trade techs for contact, all our gold plus large gpt amounts from us. I believe all we're down currently is chemistry, which they will trade for contact and lots of gold. We are still the only ones to have contact with both continents. If I did it wrong, I'm sorry.

Preturn - 450ad - lots of units with movement points left. Send military to high flip-risk towns, keep workers working and boats moving. Check PP trades, Abe & Shaka want 50g +12gpt, Xman wants 50 +13gpt. Check to see who is least powerful on that continent and decide to pay the extra 1gpt not to feed the stronger civs. (please don't hurt me.) Set research to Chivalry in 6 @ 40% with +27, 8g left in treasury. Hit enter.

IT - Shaka wants our boat to leave and we apologize. Bab settler pair move forward, Greeks turn around. Eotin Bay lib -> aqua, Fish Camp worker -> treb.

1. 460ad - Trade PP to Hammi for Chivalry, 27gpt +3g. Trade PP + 13gpt to Cleo for Invention. They don't know anyone on the other continent, so they can only talk to each other. Research to Education in 10 at +6, with 39g in the treasury. Mostly worker moves.

IT - V Valley worker -> knight, Farm5 worker -> treb. Egypt building Leo's. Everyone except Egypt now has gunpowder.

2. 470ad - mostly worker/boat moves. Settler reaches destination as Bab town expands to within 1 tile of spot. Move units out of Bab territory to help with flip risk, but plan to settle anyway. Treasury at 45g with -1gpt.

IT - Bab bowman moves into our territory near Farm 2. Settler pairs leaving.

3. 480ad - Found Kiohero on land bridge next to incense -> worker. Worker/boat moves. Gold 44 and +3.

IT - Hammi annoyed by our boat, apologize. Cronetown treb -> court

4. 490ad - worker/boat moves. Bab bowman moves S/W in Farm 2's borders.

IT - Egypt completes Sistine Chapel in Elephantine.

Babs & Persians start Leo's. Settler pairs continue to leave. I'd have sworn I saw 3 pairs when I first looked at the save, but no sign of the 3rd one since...only 1 Bab & 1 Egyptian.

5. 500ad - Babs learn Education...ask what Hammi wants...um, no. worker/boat moves. Increase research to 60%, Education in 4 at -7, 59g in treasury.

IT - Bedeville knight -> Forbidden Palace in 16, Harriet Bay harbor -> knight, Greeks start Leo's, Babs complete Leo's in Uruk.

America & Persia learn Education.

6. 510ad - galley spots Persian borders.

Education due in 2, lower sci to 50% still at 2 turns, +11 with 52g in treasury.

IT - Sallie knight -> settler, Smelly market -> court, N Pole harbor -> aqua

7. 520ad - Education in 1, hire scientist in Farm4 and lower sci slider to zero. Unit/worker moves. Galley sees Sidon. Just noticed that the Bab bowman, who has been continuing S/W just inside our borders, is now standing on our iron near Tyendenaga. We have been connecting our 3rd iron source, but it won't be finished for another 3 turns. If he pillages it, will we keep our own source or the one being traded to Alex??? Our military is weak compared to the Babs. I guess I should have had a unit guarding the iron.

IT - Persia complains about our galley and we apologize. He will trade contact with Spain for contact with Babs. Um,no. We learn Education and set research to Banking in 8 at -34g with 214g in the treasury. Kawauka worker -> harbor

8. 530ad - Clever Spgs is unhappy, so I hire a taxman. We trade Cleo Education for Gunpowder and have saltpeter on a mountain next to Clever Spgs. The Bab bowman did not pillage our iron, and I moved a knight onto the mountain.

IT - Eotin Bay aqua -> court, Scoutsville harbor -> court, Kente worker -> treb. Babs, Persia and America get chemistry. They will all trade for all our gold, contact on other continent and ~35gpt. I'll wait.

9. 540ad - worker moves and galleys exploring. Moved an archer to cover the saltpeter and a couple of workers that direction to hook it up...Bab bowman is right next to it.

IT - Sallie settler -> university, Clever Spgs Market -> court, Tyendenaga court -> lib. Third iron is hooked up and Cleo needs it, but has nothing to trade.

10. 550ad - worker [edit: settler, not worker] in Salamanca sent to Bedeville heading for the east, and there is one open spot left just N/W of the farms. worker/boat moves.

Notes: One worker has just reached the saltpeter mountain and the Bab bowman has moved 1 tile S/E. Flip risk is very high at Kiohero. There is a Bab spear next to Farm2 and a settler pair right next to him.

We're building an awful lot of courthouses...not sure if those are what's needed. The FP is due in 12 in Bedeville. The workers have made progress in developing the farms but, as Bede said, we still need lots of work done in our core.

I'll try to get the pics up ASAP, but I took a lot and some need to be trimmed. I've been playing this for the last 5 hours straight and I'm mucho tired. Hmmmm, seems I still don't quite have the hang of cropping pics in Paint.

 

[gmaharriet]

The trade for Printing Press 450 AD

We get Chivalry 460 AD

We get Invention 460AD

Hammi's Education Offer 500 AD. We say no.

We meet Xerxes 520AD, but refuse offer.

Persian/Zulu Coast 550AD

The S/E Bab Coast 550AD

Our Empire 550 AD

 

[cleverhandle]

Got it.

Good trading, even if it's not exactly what Bede described (and I'm not sure, never having done contact trading with PP known only to the other continent). I'll play my set later today (Saturday).

 

[Ansar]

lurker's comment: wow, its only Sammara(Babylonian S/E Coast) and you can already guarantee that they already got Iron and Horses

 

[Bede]

Not exactly what I had in mind, but good job pulling Education, Chivalry not so good. Knights are expensive relative to MW and maces and with a stack of "Combined Arms" are not really needed. Bombardment units are the human "ace in the hole".

Now that Printing Press is pretty well spread around any contact trading will have to be general, in other words if you sell to one you need to sell to all. And I think we will do better by not trading contacts at all, but by brokering technology between continents.

Judging from where all the knowledge is that other continent must be a veritable Garden of Eden.

My personal preference is move straight to Navigation. But if the farm works out Banking will also have some value to us. The economics work like this: at more than 60% science banks are a drag on the economy as only 40% of net gold gets multiplied. But if by farming the east for scientists we can keep the science budget at 50% or less than banks in the core towns make good sense, and universities become less important.

Our research turnover target is 8 turns or less so manage the population and sliders accordingly. If you can't get to 8 turns and keep positive cash in the treasury shut the research down and accumulate cash for purchases or to finance later deficits.

 

[Ansar]

lurker's comment: on a side note:can you guys make or rename a city "Lurkers Den"?

 

[gmaharriet]

I guess I still don't understand exactly what you had in mind and maybe I'd need to see it in action. It just seemed that if only a contact were sold, that contact would buy PP and we'd have the same situation as now, but without the tech it purchased.

I tried doing a board search late Thursday night on PP, looking for either an SG that has used it or a broad discussion of the ins and outs. Nothing came up that applied and I gave up after about an hour. If you could point me to something, I'd be much obliged.

If nothing else is readily available (and this may be asking too much), it would be extremely helpful if you could replay my 10 turns as a demonstration of how to use it. Not sure how or where you could post it even if you were willing. [edit: Or maybe I should just replay the turns myself this weekend as a learning exercise to see what I stumble across.]

Not exactly what I had in mind, but good job pulling Education, Chivalry not so good.

I now follow your reasoning on why we didn't need Chivalry, but it was the gpt from that trade which financed the research on Education. Before I made that trade, Hammi was willing to make a similar offer with Invention rather than Chivalry. He still wanted PP, but I guess it would have been preferable to what I actually did, and then not doing a second trade would have left us with more gpt as income to invest in research.

My personal preference is move straight to Navigation. But if the farm works out Banking will also have some value to us. The economics work like this: at more than 60% science banks are a drag on the economy as only 40% of net gold gets multiplied. But if by farming the east for scientists we can keep the science budget at 50% or less than banks in the core towns make good sense, and universities become less important.

So are you recommending in general that a choice be made between building banks or unis, with the unis usually being preferred, and researching accordingly? I guess building both has worked for me playing at lower levels, because I have almost always kept my research at 50% and hoarded cash (and maybe the reason it's been hard to move up above Regent, huh? ).

 

[General Mayhem]

What do you think about going for economics Bede? Its been my experience that the AI rarely goes for it first, so it would make a decent trading tech, and Smith's is nice....

 

[cleverhandle]

But if the farm works out Banking will also have some value to us. The economics work like this: at more than 60% science banks are a drag on the economy as only 40% of net gold gets multiplied.

But if the 50% profiit on that 40% is more than the maintenance, then the banks are still doing you good. And the last research turn should make a pile of money when you turn down the science slider. I agree with what you're describing in principle (higher research = less value in banks), but the mathematics would depend on more than just the slider values. In most games, I wouldn't be in a hurry to build banks at this point because we can generate enough money brokering tech that we can run our sliders very high on research. On the other hand, if we're still itching for a fight, wars can slow that down. I would build Unis first, then Banks if there's nothing better to do.

Speaking of a fight, what's our plan there? We've been talking about beating up on Egypt for a long time now.

 

[Bede]

If nothing else is readily available (and this may be asking too much), it would be extremely helpful if you could replay my 10 turns as a demonstration of how to use it. Not sure how or where you could post it even if you were willing. [edit: Or maybe I should just replay the turns myself this weekend as a learning exercise to see what I stumble across.]

Had to post in MTDG but will run a shadow through the trading turns. Looking at the face of it I don't think you went deep enough.

I now follow your reasoning on why we didn't need Chivalry, but it was the gpt from that trade which financed the research on Education. Before I made that trade, Hammi was willing to make a similar offer with Invention rather than Chivalry. He still wanted PP, but I guess it would have been preferable to what I actually did, and then not doing a second trade would have left us with more gpt as income to invest in research.

I haven't tried it yet but I think you could have pulled more gpt by not accepting the offer of Chivalry, or you could ave worked it the other way by trading Cleo to the other continent. We'll see when I run the shadow.

So are you recommending in general that a choice be made between building banks or unis, with the unis usually being preferred, and researching accordingly? I guess building both has worked for me playing at lower levels, because I have almost always kept my research at 50% and hoarded cash (and maybe the reason it's been hard to move up above Regent, huh? ).

When you run research high the multiplier value of the bank is reduced. Look at it this way:

Town at pop 12 with 25% corruption in Republic (no commerce bonuses) gets you 24gpt gross or 18 net gpt in the town, 60% to science leaves only 7gpt for the bank, and you get <4 from the multiplier so the bank is profitable, barely. It really only becomes worth the shields for a bank when the budget rate gets down to 50%. And unless you can come up with a horde of scientists 50% or even 70% science will not get anywhere near the 8 turns or less needed to stay on a par with Emperor AI. And the higher the science budget goes the less available for the banker to work with.

And the last research turn should make a pile of money when you turn down the science slider.

But at best that is only going to be 25% of the time. And I am not at all sure that that 25% makes up for the accumulated maintenance on the other 75%. Not to mention the shields invested.

but the mathematics would depend on more than just the slider values.

So true but now I have you thinking about those factors

In most games, I wouldn't be in a hurry to build banks at this point because we can generate enough money brokering tech that we can run our sliders very high on research. On the other hand, if we're still itching for a fight, wars can slow that down. I would build Unis first, then Banks if there's nothing better to do.

Yepper.

Speaking of a fight, what's our plan there? We've been talking about beating up on Egypt for a long time now.

I'm thinking Hammi might be the better choice

What do you think about going for economics Bede? Its been my experience that the AI rarely goes for it first, so it would make a decent trading tech, and Smith's is nice....

True. But I'd rather go for Navigation and get the trade nets up and running

 

[Bede]

Contact with Babylon is worth Printing Press to Abe so the contact is easily worth another tech, like Invention, so here is T1

Contact with Babylon gets this slew of gold from X-man plus a blind date

but since I have now sold Babylon to one I need to shop him to the others

But before I do that let's pay a courtesy call on the Queen

Turns out Isabella is a worthless slattern living in a trailer on Tobacco Road.

But since Hammi has all the money (or at least more than anyone else) I sell my ticket to dance with Isabella to him first....

Shaka pays another chunk of change for Contact with Babylon

Then I finish shopping Babylon for this deal by spending 104g+37gpt plus a date with Hammi for Invention from Abe baby.

Now that the contacts across the water have been broken by selling Hammi to the other continent, who will of course buy the rest of our friends from him I decice to go on a rampage with Printing Press locally and make this sweet deal locally:

Then sell Abe a date with Cleo:

And since the local monopoly on Printing Press is broken take 17gpt and 2g from Hammi.

Sell Isabella to Cleo

And then to X-man

Abe is the only one over there with any money and he knows everybody on this continent so there shouldn't be too much trading going on. Hammi holds a planetary monopoly on Chemistry so that will show up on the other continent right soon, giving us a chance to buy it cheaply.

And by the end of this round I am up two techs with another 65g in the treasury and a current account deficit of 3gpt (paid out the others-income from others)

Education finally showed up in 500AD and I bought it from Shaka for a ton of coin

then used it to acquire Chemistry from X-man for some of the rest (27gpt).

Now that I have a little better feel for the way the game is going I think the move toward banking is the best. There are enough SCI nations out there that we will make the best progress at least through the end of the MA and the IA by trade and espionage rather than research, so a priority switch to banks and military would be appropriate.

And make Egypt and Spain the targets of our military might, aiming for the elimination of both.

 

[gmaharriet]

Thanks for playing that out and showing how it's done, Bede, and you got Chemistry too. Really amazing!

Without being able to look at a save from your play, I still have a question. Since in your version contacts and PP have been traded, it seems we would no longer be in a position to broker techs, which is something I was trying to preserve. What would be the strategy from that point on? I guess I'll have to shadow your turns now and see what it looks like.

I've seen your trading turns in other SG's, and you seem to do things no one else can do. Thank you for the insights.

In playing out our actual game at this point, I'm assuming we can still sell those contacts in a similar way to finance our research and/or purchase of more techs...maybe Chemistry to start?

Edit for additional comment:

we will make the best progress at least through the end of the MA and the IA by trade and espionage rather than research,

Espionage is something else I've never tried. I'm looking forward to learning about that!!!

 

[Bede]

The brokerage options still exist, we just need to be a little quicker and on the spot about them. Look for the holes in other nation's knowledge and try to fill them is what it's really all about.

The game as it stands may in fact be in a slightly stronger position as I don't think we owe anything to Hammi who is becoming the leader. That's my fault as I didn't encourage the transition to Republic sooner nor did I enforce the notion of build nothing in the capitol but settlers. So the mid MA battle with Hammi is probably still on as we want to do it before he gets cannon.

The war with Egypt is tempting but it will break our trade route with Greece so the timing is critical.

I am going to ask Rik Meleet to do his trade examintor with my trade sequence so you can see how a real master does it.

 

[Ansar]

lurker's comment: gmaharriet,espionage is tons of fun .