Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession Games' started by Dave Hartwick, Apr 18, 2009.
At first sight B looks best to me. Decent food, and with the hills stone decent production. The island may be small, but at least there are two close by (supposing the land in the west is not strangely connected to ours).
By resources D doesn't look bad either, but may be tiny. But could be an isthmus to the south.
C has most land but poor resources. Maybe there's something under the fog, although there's little fog... Probably has metal or horse, but is a bit of a gamble.
A seems very southern and doesn't appeal much.
E doesn't make me jump from my chair either...
So that is also my initial preference: BDCAE.
Double posting so I can look at the screenshots while I type. Set up looks right: tropical high seas archipelago epic with Ragnar on immortal.
Start points look like ass, though. Where's all the gold? I used regenerate map for all these and out of curiosity I tried regenerating again after dropping to the main menu. Sure enough, I got one with 3 gems in the BFC. Still, these are good. We may have a HoF leader but by no means are any of these HoF starts.
A: There's land at least. Too bad the western island shows tundra. Not much visible food and 3 hills. I guess you'd have to settle in place and hope there's seafood to the north.
B: Not so bad for food. Moderately productive with 3 hills, including stone. Visible coasts in two directions. The stone won't be of any use until the Kremlin, though.
C: Plenty of hills, but no food to support it.
D: 9 forests, 3 seafood, at least 4 hills. I know that could spell isolation, but any of these could be on tiny islands. I like it.
E: A little food, hard to see how many hills. Mediocre with visible coast.
D > B > C > A > E.
A: Some food, three hills for production, not too much. Probably another food source in the fog or metal on the bare hill. Islands in the fog, though they are tundra islands, not much to write home about.
B: Enough food, though the Plains Corn isn't that good. Not a lot of production though. Couple of islands to colonize.
C: That's scarce in resources. If we're lucky there's seafood in the fog E. 5 hills for production (but no good without food unfortunately).
D: Three food sources and 5 hills. Island looks pretty small though.
E: Three hills (can't tell if there's anything in the fog). 2 food. Probably something hidden in the fog as well or a metal on the nonforested tile.
Vote: D (hope that there's more land) > C (hope that there are nice resources) > E (hope that there's something nice in the fog) > B > A
Aargh! Did you save that one?
If we prioritize it I think either Stonehenge (free border pops, settled priests for production) or Great Wall (steal early techs if we have a neighbour, or if not late techs with settled spies and SY) could be worth a shot. There are forests to chop too. I see people getting these wonders on immortal/deity, so it must be possible. GLH is of course higher priority, but I could see us snatching that and either SH or GW. Even if we lose out on SH or GW, the extra gold through stone bonus would be great.
Bad odds that we'll have a neighbor worth stealing from, plus no barbarians to speak of, so I can't see the point of the Great Wall.
Willing to discuss Stonehenge, though.
A: Looks fun, not too overpowered, may be a little on the weak side for our first immortal SG so I will give it a pass
B: Looks good for a SH + Mids (maybe GW too, but I wouldn't risk TGLH), food rich so it can support quite a few mids specs... and the 3 hills will let us expand + get NE up
C: I love this start, weak food resources, will require grassland farming, huge production though, looks like plenty of land to settle and lots of land for capital. Seems to be a semi-challenging start, production heavy capital good for expansion + later military uses.
D: Super strong start, lots of food, lots of prod, looks like land might be limited, however this seems too easy to me.
E: Another fun one, lots of food, meh to bad production, would be a challenge.
Based on this I would vote in terms of most fun to play, not how good the start is
Only comment is that if we go start B, I think we will have to have shorter turn sets in the BC's as it will require quite a bit of micro to chase out 2-3 wonders on immortal... potentially building Mids or GLH in a second city
Currently B, C, and D are tied for first. Whosit, we need your vote, please.
Yeah, sorry. I figured I'd just abstain this time . . . .
Probably: B > C > D > whatever. I don't think I helped any.
Hey, where'd that famous Whosit enthusiasm go? You got to be the tie breaker.
B wins. I'll random up the rotation and post the save after work... but I may have to work late, so we could be looking at 7 hours from now.
Agree with Loki that we'll want shorter turnsets for the early game rather than the 20+ we were doing. Stonehenge will help with expansion.
I'm thinking build order something like workboat workboat settler worker.
Tech order myst mining BW masonry sailing?
I don't usually plan initial builds or techs so I could be way off. Discussion please.
We start with fishing + Hunting
I would go workboat first while working the forested hill - worker while working seafood - workboat - stonehenge - Settler/lighthouse(depending on timing) - lighthouse(if we didn't build already) - GLH - settler
worker should mine the stone first, then the grassland hill, we won't have quarry up in time for stonehenge
Tech path I would go mining - mysticism - BW(chop + mine forested hill immediately, chop out LH + GLH too) - Sailing - masonry(quarry the stone mine)
After that I would grab the wheel and agriculture, don't even think about mids till stone is hooked up
I think we should scout our land some more before we think about the pyramids, and I would not bother with TGW as not a lot of land, does not work against sea barbs, hammer poor map, GP pollution etc.
Remember we'll have to talk about trading posts here, not lighthouses!
Loki's tech and build path doesn't sound bad, but just for the sake of it I'd like to propose something else as well. Maybe it's utter bogus and obviously can't really check with a save now.
The thing is I hate to build a stone wonder with stone nearby but not hooked up! So I thought, can't we research myst-masonry(requires myst OR mining)-wheel(to hook up stone)-mining-BW-sailing? Builds would be like Loki proposes: WB, worker, WB, Stonehenge. Chopping comes later here, but I think the double production bonus of stone and the highly productive stone tile itself would maybe make up for that.
I would have to look at the save though to see how actual build times would coincide with research times, but well, I thought let's throw the suggestion up already.
I would have to check, but my guess is that Loki's order is quicker, because we can use chops to speed up the builds and don't need wheel that early (dropping one tech from the list).
OK, attaching the save and will come back in a couple hours with some numbers.
Maybe. OTOH we keep some more forests to chop TGLH after that, or even Pyramids if we so choose. On normal SH is 120 hammers and we save 60 with stone, which is 2 or 3 very worthful chops, on epic that may be even more. Also being financial we do research slightly quicker and wheel is not that costly. But I agree that timing is of the essence.
Or like the "hammer-heavy" guys we try it both ways and then choose from the best beginning. They play immortal too!
EDIT: crossposted with Dave's save, will check that this evening (in 12 hrs or so).
I modified one of the other saves to have stone, so these numbers should match up.
Common stuff we want to build (forgot to check the wonders, though)
Work boat 45 H
Settler 145 H
Worker 90 H
Warrior 22 H (I never knew a scout doesn't count for a garrison)
Trade Post 90 H
We need 33 food to get to population 2.
I think we all know what the tile yields are, but I was surprised that mine or quarry, same hammer for stone.
Maso 195 discount for myst + mining
Thanks for looking that up, Dave. It's a bit of a bummer techs are so costly at immortal/epic! And the fact we don't start with either myst or mining doesn't help either...
Anyway I did some extensive calculations, hopefully it's worth slightly more than a one way ticket to the litter bin.
First off, "my" proposal of building SH with stone hooked up. I noticed in this case it's better to start off with 2 WBs, otherwise the worker would end up with idle turns.
T1-11 build WB, working the stone tile, 44h. Start with mysticism (or mining, same results).
T12 switch to 2f1h to finish WB.
T13 WB up, start other WB. Work the clams for 4f3c.
IBT myst comes in after 12 turns 9c, 1 turn 12c.
T21 grow to 2, after t1 of 2f and 8 turns 4f. Work stone as second tile, 8h invested now in WB.
T25 mining in after 10 turns 12cpt. Start masonry.
T31 WB2 finishes. Hook up other clam and work it. 15 cpt now. Few turns in warrior, waiting for growth to size 3.
T34 growth to 3, start worker. 8 excess food/hammer -> 12 turns. 15 cpt.
T39 masonry in. Don't know how big the discount is, may come in slightly earlier. Start wheel.
T46 worker finished, setup quarry. Continue warrior build. Work 2 clam and 2f1h tile. 6 excess food.
T51 wheel in. Start BW or even sailing.
T52 quarry up (6 turns, is it?), road it.
T53 grow to size 4. work 2 clam, quarried stone (5h?), 1f2h tile.
T55 Start stonehenge. Must be 180 hammers on epic (factor 1.5), 90 with stone. Have 8 hpt now.
T67 finish SH.
T71 BW in. Therefore maybe even better to go sailing first to start immediately on trading post after SH. Although settler comes to mind as well...
The stonemining proposal works out as follows.
T1-12 same, though researching mining.
T13 start worker.
IBT start BW, due in 25 (292/12)
T31 worker in, start WB.
T39 growth to size 2. work clam and mined stone. BW just in.
T46 workboat in. 14 food saved. start SH.
T56 grow to size 3. 60h now invested in SH.
By this time theoretically we may have chopped all 5 forests and if it would be 24h per forest, SH would come in now. Don't think that's a good idea because it leaves us without any forest to chop for TGLH at all, which we all agree is the main thing. So let's suppose 3 forests for 72h. Then we're at 132, and still need 48h. We may have a mine now, so there are 9hpt, so 6 turns more and it finishes at T62. It maybe a bit sooner even if we chop into the 2nd workboat.
So indeed the stonemining thing beats the quarry by at least 5 turns. However, the downsides are that we spent 3 forests that could have gone to TP/TGLH and, moreover, we're smaller in size and pull less commerce.
So maybe we can do the stonemining thing going WB/WB/worker to overcome this last thing.
So then till T46 it's the same as the quarry proposal. The mine may be in slightly sooner than the quarry, but I think it's obvious that this won't work out, since SH would be started with serious hammers on T50 and needing 180 hammers from that point, both other schemes work out better.
The whole thing also boils down to how quick stonehenge is generally built on immortal and maybe even if we want it in the first place.
After all this, I'm a bit undecided still about what is best. Not having enough forests to chop for TGLH does worry me though with the stonemining option. And if we lose SH in the quarry option at least the invested hammers give double gold.
And now start shooting holes into my reasoning!
Sorry for the extensive post by the way.
EDIT: In the quarry option after building the quarry we would of course build a mine on the other hill, so that shaves a turn or even 2 off of SH. So less difference.
EDIT2: Of course I may be off by a turn here or there, but generally it must be something like what I said. I think.
How'd you do your calculations? I downloaded a city planner spreadsheet but all it does is calculate tile values. I would rather have something that helps with the early game micromanagement.
Appreciate your ciphering, nocho. Diligence needs no apology, IMO.
Good old pencil and paper!
And your numbers as input, of course.
Ok, did some more scenarios but by now all cpt, hpt and fpt are flying around me so take it with a grain of salt.
This is going WB/worker/WB/SH but down the quarry line.
T1-12 same, research myst.
T13 start worker.
IBT start mining
T25 mining in after 10 turns 12cpt. Start masonry.
T31 worker in, starts on stone mine. Start WB.
T37 stone mine up. Mine hill.
T39 growth to size 2. work clam and mined stone.
T41 masonry in. Start wheel at 12cpt.
T43 Hill mined, go back to stonemine and start quarry.
T46 workboat in. 14 food saved. Now work both clams. 15 cpt.
T49 quarry up. Worker takes a rest
T50 grow to size 3.
T52 wheel in. Road quarry.
T54/55 Stone available, start SH.
Starting SH about the same turn as in my previous post, this is the lesser option I suppose, with the city having grown less.
The same, but changing research order to avoid worker downtime
T1-12 same, research mining.
T13 start worker.
IBT start masonry at 12cpt.
T31 worker in, mine hill. Start WB.
T33 masonry in, start wheel. Calculated 240 beakers for not having both mining+myst. Start wheel at 12cpt.
T37 Hill mine in, start quarry.
T39 growth to size 2. work clam and mine. 8h in wb.
T43 Quarry in. work clam and quarry. 24h in wb, 12f saved.
T45 Wheel in. Start myst. Start roading.
T47 workboat in. 20 food saved. Now work both clams. 15 cpt.
T50 grow to size 3. Work clams and lake. 18 cpt.
T53 Myst in, start on SH. Work clams, quarry.
T57 grow to size 4. 24 hammers invested now in SH. work mine, quarry, clams for 9 hpt.
T65 SH in.
Maybe this last scenario works out best. More so if masonry takes less, anybody knows about the discounts?
(EDIT) Actually on T53 work quarry, mine, clam which will give SH on turn 63.
After we have started and are beyond 100 turns or so I'll surely try out all options to see what works best. Right now it all dazzles me!
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