The 60th anniversary of...

[Exel]

...the end of the Soviet grand offensive against Finland. During this year the world has been remembering the anniversaries of many World War 2 events, most notably the one of the Operation Overlord. But aside from Finns, most seem to have forgotten or paid very little attention to the events in the north. Being a Finn I think it is my responsibility to at least try to change that. So here goes...

Three days after the invasion to the beaches of Normandy began, Soviet Union launched its own offensive in the east that Stalin had earlier promised to the other Allied leaders. But the main attack was not directed against Germany, unlike everyone had expected. Instead the Red Army thrusted against the Finns on the Karelian Isthmus, just north of Leningrad. With an overwhelming numerical superiority in both men and equipment (over 200 artillery pieces per front kilometer in the focal point, more than 600 tanks and 1000 aircraft supporting) the Soviets broke through the Finnish lines and routed the defenders. The advance was swift, and Viborg was reached in a couple of weeks and occupied without much of a resistance.

But after recovering from the initial shock the Finnish Army regrouped and reorganized with reinforcements, troops gathered from other fronts, being sent in. A new defensive line was formed just north of Viborg. This line was to witness some of the fiercest fighting of the Second World War. Between June 25 and July 9 the largest battle ever in the history of all Nordic countries (and one of the largest battles in WW2) took place at Tali-Ihantala. The Soviets, knowing that if they would succeed in breaking through this line all of Finland would be open to them, were anxious to continue their advance into Finland and to Helsinki for their victory parade and installment of a puppet regime that would make Finland another Soviet state. But despite having more than three times the men and undisputed superiority in both tanks and aircraft, the Red Army failed time after time. After the loss of 22,000 men, hundreds of tanks and aircraft, and with the Finnish Army anything but defeated (they had managed to effectively counter-attack a number of times, once encircling an entire Soviet division) the Soviets halted and withdrew. The battle was over. The negotiations for peace commenced. On September 3rd the offensive was halted alltogether, and a great deal of forces moved south to fight the Germans. The next day saw the beginning of a cease-fire, the end of hostilities between Finland and the Soviet Union. The Finnish Army had, with the help of German flight detachment Kuhlmey, an infantry division and an assault gun brigade, stopped the Soviet onslaught against overwhelming odds. Despite harsh peace conditions, Finland was able to maintain its sovereignty.

 

[Eniotna]

It's also the 60th anniversary of the liberation of Belgium.

 

[Gelion]

Why should we remember the allies of Nazi Germany?

 

[privatehudson]

Why should we remember the allies of Nazi Germany?

Because they were prior to that the victims of a Russian agression and fought bravely and superbly for some time prior to WWII?

There were many reasons for countries to side with the Germans during WWII, in Finlands case it had less to do with being Nazis as such and more to do with fear of or revenge against the Russians. Caught between a Nazi totalitarian regime and a Soviet totalitarian regime doesn't leave you much choice if you wish to remain independent.

 

[Gelion]

Sweden managed to stay neutral, why couldn't Finland try?
I do agree with the agression and that the war of 1940 was not very different than Hitlers conquest of Norway for example, but (!) I want to say this once and for all (no offence but I have to make my point):
1. During the Russian civil war the allies berayed Whites numerous times, especially by signing pleace treaties with Bolsheviks. No point in saying that where was no "White" goverment - Kolchak was the ruler of Russia for a long time in the civil war. The "Allies" failed to understand the dangers of Bolshevism and betrayed those who with their blood prevented a large scale revolution in Europe (Lenins goal was a revolution in Europe, but he could not help start it because of the Russian civil war). The Allies were driven by desire to save their own men, weaken Russia as a state and by financial promises Bolsheviks made to them (like licences to exploit some areas of Syberia and so on). So after the civil war was over there was no longer Russia, but USSR who's goal at the time was to unite all the world under its banner.
2. So don't go blaming the Russians. It was a Soviet agression undertaken in the light of doctrines of a "world revolution". I hold Allies responsible to what happened to Russia as a country (not to mention the Germans ) so I don't think they have a right to blame Russia/USSR for agression. After all they did very few to stop what was seen to be coming...
(sorry for threadjacking (sp), but I wanted to make this point...

 

[Exel]

Sweden managed to stay neutral, why couldn't Finland try?

Sweden didn't have Soviet Union next door...

During Winter War Finland received little help from the Allies even though they had promised a lot. After the German conquest of Denmark and Norway (and later France) Finland could not realistically expect any support from the Allies. In 1941 Germany approached us and revealed some of their plans regarding Barbarossa. The Finnish administration, on one hand, saw a chance to take back the lost territories (and more, the so called Finnish tribe areas in East Karelia) from Soviet Union in coordination with Germany's offensive, but on the other hand, also realized that Finland was between a rock and a hard place; Finland would have to align with either Germany or Soviet Union, since attempting to stay neutral would have most likely led to Finland becoming a battleground between the two, effectively meaning a hopeless two-front war for us.

But it must be stressed that Finland was at no point part of the Axis alliance; we fought with Germany against a common enemy, not for Germany (Finland did not, for example, participate in the siege of Leningrad despite Hitler's many requests of doing so).

In any case, by 1944 the war for us was all about staying independent and avoiding Soviet occupation. I'm not highlighting the 60th anniversary of the beginning of the Continuation War, but the end of it - the Finnish defensive victory.

EDIT: The moral of Finland fighting with Germany against Soviet Union is similar to that of United States and Great Britain fighting with Soviet Union against Germany - "The enemy of my enemy is my friend," as the saying goes.

 

[Gelion]

Good point Exel. I'm in no way defending the agression of both countires . But your posts helped me to understand Finnish position.

 

[privatehudson]

Glad we cleared that one up then, even if we do end up trying to blame everyone else for our own faults

 

[rilnator]

Why should we remember the allies of Nazi Germany?

I think we should respect all those who died in that war (with, of course some notable eceptions). Most of the individuals had no choice but to fight. They were just small cogs in a huge wheel.

Those gallant Finns! Stalin must have had a grudging respect for them and wasn't too harsh. Mabey it was because they didn't overstep their pre 1939 borders. Unlike the Romanians, Bulgarians etc.

 

[Exel]

Those gallant Finns! Stalin must have had a grudging respect for them and wasn't too harsh.

"Nobody respects a country with a poor army, but everybody respects a country with a good army. I raise my toast to the Finnish Army." - Josif Stalin, 1948

Mabey it was because they didn't overstep their pre 1939 borders. Unlike the Romanians, Bulgarians etc.

Oh but we did. We conquered most if not all of the Finnish East Karelia. Crossing the old 1939 border was what made Great Britain declare war on us. Hitler, however, continually requested that we should advance even further, but Mannerheim declined to attack the Murmansk railway and Leningrad. Not participating in the siege probably had a lot of influence in Stalin's opinion about us.

 

[privatehudson]

I've personally always been amused by the stories of when Finland "attacked" the Germans towards the end of the war

 

[Reno]

Actualy Finland having made peace with the Soviets in september 1944 made a deal with the Germans that they would retreat from Lapland to Northern Norway
(with out a fight) But the Soviets insisted for the Finns to "attack" the Germans and push them out of Finland. So we had no other choise but to attack...

 

[privatehudson]

Actualy Finland having made peace with the Soviets in september 1944 made a deal with the Germans that they would retreat from Lapland to Northern Norway
(with out a fight) But the Soviets insisted for the Finns to "attack" the Germans and push them out of Finland. So we had no other choise but to attack...

That's what I meant

 

[Reno]

I knew that...

 

[Case]

Three days after the invasion to the beaches of Normandy began, Soviet Union launched its own offensive in the east that Stalin had earlier promised to the other Allied leaders. But the main attack was not directed against Germany, unlike everyone had expected.

That's not correct - the major offensive Stalin had promised was Operation Bagration, which was launched on 22 June 1944 and resulted in the destruction of much of the German's Army Group Centre. This attack was originally scheduled to be launched only a few days after the start of Overlord, but was bumped back due to logistical problems and bad weather - it was aparently even pure conincidence that the date it was launched was the 3rd anniversary of the German invasion of the USSR. In comparison to Bagration, the attack on Finland was a small side show and the Soviets never claimed that it was their main effort (except perhaps as part of the very sucessful efforts to divert German attention away from the build-up for Bagration).

 

[Exel]

Actualy Finland having made peace with the Soviets in september 1944 made a deal with the Germans that they would retreat from Lapland to Northern Norway
(with out a fight) But the Soviets insisted for the Finns to "attack" the Germans and push them out of Finland. So we had no other choise but to attack...

That's only partially true. The Finnish and German officers did indeed agree of a peaceful withdrawal, where the Finns would only advance as the Germans withdrew and contact was avoided. But Hitler was persistent in keeping Finland in the war. The German HQ had earlier made plans for the eventuality that Finland might try to break away from the war, and after the peace with the Soviets the Germans did indeed stage a number of offensive operations. Seaways were mined and German troops even tried to seize control of the Suursaari island in the Finnish Gulf. But it is true that major fighting in Lapland broke out only after the Soviets had threatened to send their own army into Lapland to fight off the Germans if Finland would not take a more aggressive stance against them.

That's not correct - the major offensive Stalin had promised was Operation Bagration, which was launched on 22 June 1944 and resulted in the destruction of much of the German's Army Group Centre. This attack was originally scheduled to be launched only a few days after the start of Overlord, but was bumped back due to logistical problems and bad weather - it was aparently even pure conincidence that the date it was launched was the 3rd anniversary of the German invasion of the USSR. In comparison to Bagration, the attack on Finland was a small side show and the Soviets never claimed that it was their main effort (except perhaps as part of the very sucessful efforts to divert German attention away from the build-up for Bagration).

Bagration was their main offensive in the summer of 1944... But it was not coordinated with Overlord. Stalin specifically wanted to force Finland out of the war (read: annex) before turning on Germany with full force. The forces concentrated against Finland were away from Operation Bagration - a fact that the Soviets had to face once their calculations of Finland capitulating swiftly proved incorrect. Once it became apparent that Finland could not be defeated in a few weeks as was originally planned, the offensive was halted and a majority of the troops were sent south to fight Germany.

 

[sabo]

I remember that battle Excel, and I have always admired the determination and skill the the Finnish army showed against a bigger, badder, opponent the USSR in all of WWII.

And I don't believe the Finns were a willing axis partner, they were forced into that alliance by the Soviet Union.