the 7 religons:S

[Djc]

I keep wondering if communism is officially atheist then in the game will there be atheism? I do know that there are no more strait forward governments anymore but still they said you can choose to replacate any form of government or mix them together to make your own ones. So what if I want to replecate communism?

As has been mentioned many times, the religion civics option will give a wide array of choices for your nation's relationship to religion, including forcible suppression (essentially "state sponsored" atheism).

 

[Markus6]

I'm sure there will be a religious suppression option, but be fair, don't call that atheism. Atheism is the lack of belief in a deity (or popularily active belief that there is no deity). Atheism isn't a religion that seeks to suppress all others. I'm sure lots of atheists won't be happy if the way their beliefs are presented is in a negative light in a communistic government

 

[dc82]

I'm sure there will be a religious suppression option, but be fair, don't call that atheism. Atheism is the lack of belief in a deity (or popularily active belief that there is no deity). Atheism isn't a religion that seeks to suppress all others. I'm sure lots of atheists won't be happy if the way their beliefs are presented is in a negative light in a communistic government

in my experience, esp. such as the athiest/freethinkers club at where i used to go to school, athiests and "freethinkers" seemed to be very anti-religious - what i mean is, they took an active approach against religious events and activities - subscribed to their e-mail list, they often sent emails to attend religious events and seemed just as judgmental and prejudiced as the religious institutions they criticize as being narrow-minded. but that's just my personal experience. plus nyc tends to be more pro-active, liberal, and protesty...

 

[Plotinus]

That's because young people tend to be fervent in their beliefs, whatever they may be. Hence the extreme fundamentalism of the typical university Christian Union, which is no more representative of mainstream Christianity than the militant atheists are of atheism in general. Or the arch-conservatism of the average student Conservative Club, which makes Thatcher look like Trotsky, or student Labour societies, which make Trotsky look like Thatcher.

 

[dc82]

i guess for me it just strikes me as funny - that as much as religious institutions r criticized for being full of hypocrisy, narrow mindedness, etc. the one's who point the finger r no better. at the end everyone's just screwed in the head. heh.

 

[Crazy Eskimo]

Remembering that this is a game, these religion in the game do not neccessarily have to be the same belief as it do in history and modern times.

All the more reason to use generic religions. People associate these names with their beliefs. Without the beliefs, what is there to any of these religions? Call it European Monotheism, not Catholicism, and you can watch the number of offended people dwindle and disappear AND gain the freedom to give these religions actual features that enhance gameplay.

I'm sure there will be a religious suppression option, but be fair, don't call that atheism. Atheism is the lack of belief in a deity (or popularily active belief that there is no deity). Atheism isn't a religion that seeks to suppress all others. I'm sure lots of atheists won't be happy if the way their beliefs are presented is in a negative light in a communistic government

mmm... I disagree. First off, Atheism can be both a lack of belief in a deity and a solid belief that there are no deities (for the record, Agnosticism is the belief that we can't possibly know what to believe). Even within those two distinctions, there are many different type of atheism, just as there as many different types of Christianity and most other religions. The oppressive-type of Islam that leads to shredding of unapproved books at the border does not exemplify the type of Islam that my friend Bahar practices. The atheism that the USSR practiced definitely was oppressive, while other forms are not.

I DO agree that religious suppression should be a civics option, not associated with any particular Civ-religion (or lack thereof).

That's because young people tend to be fervent in their beliefs, whatever they may be. Hence the extreme fundamentalism of the typical university Christian Union, which is no more representative of mainstream Christianity than the militant atheists are of atheism in general. Or the arch-conservatism of the average student Conservative Club, which makes Thatcher look like Trotsky, or student Labour societies, which make Trotsky look like Thatcher.

I wouldn't necessarily say that fervence in beliefs equals fundamentalism, nor that the typical Christian Union in a college is fundamentalist(though I do agree that some are fundamentalistic). The Christian clubs at my college were definitely NOT fundamentalist, yet they were very fervent in their belief, as evidenced by the amount of time and effort they put into various social causes.

Other than that, I tend to agree with you.

 

[Plotinus]

Perhaps Christian Unions are different where you're from, though in Britain at least they are typically highly fundamentalist in doctrine. But you're right that fervour isn't the same thing, since there are plenty of highly fervent non-fundamentalists - though I think that at least in the case of university societies, fundamentalism in doctrine tends to be accompanied by excessive fervour in every other respect...

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Well I think the difference between Athism-religion and Atheism-USSR Enforced is that one is a state Policy, the other is a religion.

So, there Will probably be cities with No Religion (because religions don't appear at the beginning of the game), and it might be possible for a City to Return to No Religion even when other religions are available (this is assuming each City is all one religion otherwise change 'Cities' to 'religious level in a city')

Then there would be a simple Anti-Religion Civics option, for those who wanted to Make sure their people were Atheistic, or several types of Religious Tolerance Options for those who don't want to be Anti-Religion or a Theocracy.

For the Levels of Suppression I'd look at the Law level in society, so a Theocracy with Free Speech or Civil Liberties or something would have a state religion, but it wouldn't have much effect, wheras a Theocracy with a Police State level of Law would be publicly electrocuting heretics. (same for an Anti-Religion option... or Nationhood.. which I think is a Religious option, given that it impacts Culture...Nationhood Police State would be like Nazi Germany, Nationhood Free Speech would be like most modern Democracies that don't have a state religion, like the US or France)

 

[Mark Anthony]

Atheism isn't a religion. I'm sick of people who think it is, too.

Hmm. Somebody better alert the US Supreme Court. They have, on numerous occasions, "recognized" athiesm as a religion (albiet by inclusion as they have lumped it in with other religions against which discrimination is unlawful).

I may be overstepping by bounds here, but I think the reason Firaxis decided to expand the role of religion in the game was because it WAS a driving force behinds most major civilizations and what they did. As for why some were excluded and some included, I can only guess but here are my 2gpt:

[WARNING: THIS IS NOT INTENDED TO BE OFFENSIVE TO ANYONE. IF WHAT I SAY DOES BRING OFFENSE, YOU HAVE MY DEEPEST APPOLOGIES]

Athiesm -- Let's start off with this one. Athiesm is not included. So what? How did athiesm contribute to any technological, cultural or geopolitical happenings of the last 6000+ years? Did anyone civilization set forth and declare "We do this in the name of, well, ourselves!" with any significance? The problem with athiesm is that it is an inactive and non-motivational belief system. Yes, some can make a strong argument that Humanism and Secularism are the banners behind which athiesm marches. But athiesm in and of itself, does not prosthelytize, does not inspire or demand action, does not hold meetings, does not congregate (ok, with the possible exception of the entertainment industry j/k), and has only been the "official state religion" of one relatively new and, for the most part, unsuccessful form of government. So what has athiesm done for us lately? Or at all?

Judaism -- Why should it be in? Well, for one thing, it has what no other religion popular around the same time of its inception has: Staying Power. This religion, practiced by (as someone said) no more than 50 million people at one time has been around since before there was even written language and it still exists. It is hated and reviled by more than one third of the religious world today and yet has withstood all attempts to irradicate the (in comparison) small number of people who worship it and who live in a (relative to the world) postage stamp sized nation in which its culture is based. What's more, this tiny nation with its paltry 50 million or fewer inhabitants is one of the major politial, financial, miltaristic and cultural players in the modern world. How you could have the religion of Judaism and not include the Jews as a playable Civ, however, is beyond me.

Zoroastrianism – As stated earlier, a religion which, while lasting a millennia, had little significant or long lasting effect on civilizations of its time or those which came after. Yes, there is a constant ongoing debate as to whether Christianity got its ideas from Big Z or not. However, just because it was the state religion of the Civilization which brought us advanced mathematics is not, in my opinion enough to include it.

Polytheism – I am against this as a catch-all category. I feel Animism would be better as a tip of the hat to the North and South American and African cultures who followed this belief system. While it goes against my earlier arguments of “What did it directly or indirectly contribute,” I think it is difficult to rationalize having Iroquois, Sioux, Cherokee, etc…, as playable Civs without also having their major religion. If, on the other hand, we are referencing the ancient Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, Scandinavians, et al, who held these beliefs, I would have to say that Hellenism would be the best choice as a collective term for the ancient philosophies and religions. In my opinion, the Greeks and their ancient religion and philosophers had more influence over their world at that time as well as on successive civilization up to and including the modern world than any other polytheistic faith.

Christianity and Islam – Yes, they are “new” faiths, but together their practitioners make up more than half of the world’s population. The two combined have been the cause or inspiration of more cultural, political, economical, sociological, militaristic and political advancements, atrocities, influences, works and wars than any other religion (primarily in the western world).

So, what would my list be?

Judaism
Buddhism
Hellenism
Animism
Hinduism
Christianity
Islam

And include the Jews (or Hebrews) as a playable civ (King David, perhaps?)

 

[Plotinus]

It may be news to the US supreme court, but atheism is not a religion any more than theism is. Both are religious positions, but neither "is" a religion per se, although both may form elements of religions. Thus you can atheist humanists and atheist Buddhists, who are both atheists, but clearly not members of the same religion.

So you are right to point out that atheism hasn't inspired very much, but then neither has theism, which is its opposite number. The things that inspire people are *religions* and all religions are more complex than a single metaphysical position.

 

[Kenric af Grashen]

There should be early polytheism the only polythesic one i see is hinduism and hinduism isn't my first choice polythesic religion. ancient polytheism shaped the cultures of the ancient world. i think there should be twice as many religions
to account for the ancient religion that have been pushed out for the newer ones.

 

[Crazy Eskimo]

Perhaps Christian Unions are different where you're from, though in Britain at least they are typically highly fundamentalist in doctrine. But you're right that fervour isn't the same thing, since there are plenty of highly fervent non-fundamentalists - though I think that at least in the case of university societies, fundamentalism in doctrine tends to be accompanied by excessive fervour in every other respect...

Perhaps we have a miscommunication. Is Christian Union the name of a specific group in Britain? If so, I haven't run into any branches of it in the US. I thought you meant Christian Union to mean a generic Christian club.

Thus you can atheist humanists and atheist Buddhists, who are both atheists, but clearly not members of the same religion.

Eh? Atheist Buddhist? How does that work? I thought the whole point of following the Eight-Fold path was to acheive nirvana and escape this life of suffering. How would they do that, without a belief in the supernatural?

 

[Plotinus]

Well, you can achieve nirvana and escape the life of suffering without believing in God, can't you? Different Buddhist traditions have different beliefs, but Theravada Buddhism, which is arguably the closest to the teaching of the Buddha himself, does not believe in God or indeed in anything supernatural, even the soul (understanding the doctrine of anatman, or no-soul, is the first step on the road to dissociating yourself from "your" passions).

 

[Neomega]

Anarchist governments never really did much for civilization, but the first 3 had it as a form of government.

You should definitely have a choice to be irreligious.

 

[Avayaman]

is hellenism a religion?

 

[Lkysam]

By Hellenism I believe he is referring to the Polytheistic religion practiced by the ancient Greeks (also Romans). I'm not sure if Hellenism is the actual name for it, but I think it still has a small following among some rather confused high school students in the western world

Also, Anarchy wasnt really a form of government, it was merely a transitional state. It was not intended to be a form of government that would be "used" so much as a necessary phase to pass through between the real forms of government.

Judaism definitely deserves to be in, especially if one of its contenders is Buddism or Hinduism whose effects upon the modern world are tiny in comparison. If Judaism had not existed, then it is safe to say that none of the modern western European nations that exist today would exist in any recognizable form. And keep in mind that western europe and it's off shoot (the U.S.) has been responsible for the vast majority of the technological and cultural achievments of the last few centuries. Islam also would not exist, which means that the Middle East and North Africa would not be so sunndered politically and socially today as they are right now, because there would have been no crusades or other rivalries to tear them appart from the rest of Europe.

Atheism is not a religion technically. It could be included in the game as such for gameplay and realism reasons anyway though. It probably deserves a spot because several communist nations have used it in the past century, and europe is now slipping into it, which means that it should be represented in the game.

I don't really see how the religions which are in the game matter though, they give no bonuses and are there only for looks. And Im sure the names will be easily modifiable.

 

[Neomega]

I don't really see how the religions which are in the game matter though, they give no bonuses and are there only for looks. And Im sure the names will be easily modifiable.

Religions are political tools in civ IV. They are used to strengthen or weaken alliances, and to create goodwill between like religions, and strife between opposing religions.

edit: and black isn't technically a color.... but it's my favorite.

 

[Dolemitetornado]

Daoism? Is that like Japanese. Never heard of it before.

Daoism is basically a name given to a wide mix of Chinese religious practice and philosophy. Taosim as a philosophical school began during the era of the warring states (500-20BCis? Can't remember exactly), and it developed alongside, amd in some senses was a reaction against confucionism. The Taoist classics include the Tao Te Ching, (which you can find in ANY bookstore, probably in multiple translations) and the Chuang Tzu. Taoism was somewhat like Pantheism, ie its concept of divinity was tied to nature and the underlying order of the universe, the prupose of man was to live in harmony with the universe, or the Tao (the way). As time went on, Taoism became more and more associated with traditional Chinese polytheism/animism, and these days, in addition to the "philosophical" Taoism, the word also applies to Chinas rich polytheisitic tradition. Now, as Taoism has been the major avenue for the Chinese to deal with the supernatural for most of their recorded history, and given that China is unambiguosly one of the major civilizations in world history, it would seem ridiculous to include a religion that for most of its history had as many "adherents" as Christianity or Islam.
However, the problem with representing the Chinese religions in the game is that after Buddhism entered China with the fall of the Han dynasty (200 AD ish) is that, for most Chinese, Confucianism, Buddhism, and Daoism became throughly mixed to and extent that it would probably be more accurate to speek of a general "chinese religion", rather than trying to seperate them, as Civ 4 is clumsily attempting to do.
So here's my advice, collapse Taoism and Confucianism into a general purpose Chinese religion, and add Zorastrianism.
Sikhism would be a good addition, but just as a side note I think the whole "5th biggest religion in the world" is a bit of an exaggeration, we can all agree that Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism and Islam have more adherents than Sikhism, and while the number of Sikhs is comparable to that of Jews, I think it is still likely dwarfed by Taoism. I live in Taiwan right now, this island has 23 million people, and you can't drive down the street without seeing a massive Taoist temple (a beautiful thin g by the way, reminds of me to some extent of Hindu temples). I think, despite Chinas official atheism, there is still a fair amount of people whose lives are influenced by this faith in the PRC (The Falun Gong, who claimed tens of millions of members were at least partly based on Taoist teachings). You'd also have to add the Chinese communities in Hong Kong, Singapore, Malaysia, Tahiland, the West etc, etc, where this religion still flourishes. No disrespect to Sikhism, but as the faith of most Chinese, I think Taoism can pretty unambiguously be considered to have a larger following than Sikhism.

 

[Left_Wing_Liber]

On the Jewish issue.

In there must be a civilzatin called the Israelites, Hebrew or Jews.

They have lasted more than 3,000 years and have outlived the Romans, Greeks, Inca and will probably long outlive the English, French and Americans.

I remember a version of Civ 1 with the Israelites.

 

[Plotinus]

Civ 1 didn't have the Israelites... it didn't even have Japan!

However, I don't see how the Israelites have outlasted the Greeks. There's a country called Greece today just as there is a country called Israel.