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The absence of religion for civs that were long isolated

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by Gastric ReFlux, Oct 30, 2005.

  1. Gastric ReFlux

    Gastric ReFlux Dispatch our Tech Staff

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    I've been playing Civ4 for a few days now, and in my current game, I found something which should be addressed, hopefully by Firaxis.

    It wasn't until the 1700s that my Arab civ crossed the ocean and found an AI civ which had been all alone on its own continent. During the centuries prior, the other 4 civs and I had discovered all the techs for the various religions in the game. So that lonely civ had never developed any sort of religion on its own, and that's not correct. It's pretty safe to say from any examination of human culture that religions have developed in every society.

    I suggest that the engine be tweaked in some fashion, either with some sort of default paganism/animism or that if in the ancient age civs fail to discover the techs, or don't have contact with other civs to have religions come into the culture, that some sort of paganism/animism be granted to that civillization.
     
  2. Akaoz

    Akaoz Warlord

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    I think it's safe to assume that the Civ in question has developed some sort of spiruality, but it just never developed organized religion.
     
  3. Gastric ReFlux

    Gastric ReFlux Dispatch our Tech Staff

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    But after some period of time, there would have been some organization, it's inevitable, just like politics.
     
  4. Akaoz

    Akaoz Warlord

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    I'm not so sure about that... But the problem is that a civ CAN'T develop religion on its own if it doesn't grab any of the techs first...
     
  5. Gastric ReFlux

    Gastric ReFlux Dispatch our Tech Staff

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    Exactly. That's why I'm suggesting some sort of default or some sort of emergent one that would develop in an unlucky and isolated civ. Probably by the end of the Ancient Age at the latest, some sort of organized rituals would have developed by then surrounding death and the largely unknown and unexplained features of the world. People that purport to have such information to explain it will be in a position to try to sell happiness, and with the power/money involved in that, some sort of organized religion is inevitable.
     
  6. Muad-Dib

    Muad-Dib Chieftain

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    The same thing was similar with Native Americans when they first made European contact. They had no organized religion to speak of, but they had religion.
     
  7. Ninja Queen

    Ninja Queen Chieftain

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    Exactly. There's nothing to say that organised religion is inevitable. The reason the Eastern and Abrahamic religions developed was because they had strong centralised states to force them on people. As in real history, in civ a civilisation that's "isolated" for thousands of years (though I doubt they felt very isolated...) will undergo a very different development path.

    In civ it's a problem because the game is geared so that western european styles of development = success and all other forms of development are impossible. While it detracts in the game world, it's not unrealistic in the real world.
     
  8. Sol Invictus

    Sol Invictus Chieftain

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    I do not think that organized religion is inevitable. As previous posters have pointed out, many isolated cultures in the world, even large ones like the Iroqois, had a distinct lack of organized religion, regardless of their animism, paganism or distinctive deities.

    However, that said, Firaxis should have added either the Aztec or Mayans religion into the game. They were rather big, and organized enough that sacrificial ceremonies were performed on a daily basis at the height of their empires.
     
  9. Anima Croatorum

    Anima Croatorum Prince

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    How bout Incas and Aztec?

    edit: Aztec or Mayan religion... mass human sacrifice is not something that can be called 'civilized'. Their barbaric customs are definitively not something that could evolve into a world religion.
     
  10. esdawg01

    esdawg01 Chieftain

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    i think the prblem with that is that no one wood no what to call it; also isnt paganism as the default religion civic good enough to explain the isolated civs religion problem?
     
  11. Ninja Queen

    Ninja Queen Chieftain

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    Nevermind the fact that there were more Aztec and Incan "barbarians" than European christians in the time before the conquests...
     
  12. Anima Croatorum

    Anima Croatorum Prince

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    And? I dont see any human sacrifice in Madrid, but I do see Catholicism all over Latin America.
     
  13. Ninja Queen

    Ninja Queen Chieftain

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    Well, the series has been so Euro-centric so far that it's amazing that two native american civs managed to get into the vanilla edition of one of the series...I doubt they'd go as far as putting their religions in, too...
     
  14. Ninja Queen

    Ninja Queen Chieftain

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    Yes, because the Spanish managed to use native tribes to conquer the Aztecs and Inca, then they enslaved everyone (former allies included), forced Catholicism on them, and worked them until a population of 20 million had been reduced to barely 1 million.

    But hey, at least they didn't kill and eat people! That would be barbaric!
     
  15. Anima Croatorum

    Anima Croatorum Prince

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    Actually, it was germs that killed most native americans, long before Spanish marched in. And to get even, America gave Europe VDs.

    And if Aztecs were such nice people I possibly cannot understand why everyone allied with the Spaniards against them.
     
  16. Ninja Queen

    Ninja Queen Chieftain

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    No...the Spanish brought the germs with them; forcing people into positions whereby they're vulnerable to disease is a type of genocide. Anne Frank died of Typhus, for instance.

    Perhaps it's just me, but I was under the impression that things like enslavement in silver mines and being shot were bad for your health, and would have contributed to a 95% drop in population over a century.

    i) Native Americans didn't invade and colonise Europe and force VDs on everyone
    ii) Most VDs already existed in Europe and Asia, the only one that didn't was syphillis.

    Who said they were nice? They were as barbarous as the Spaniards. I'm making the point that just because people are white and call themselves Christian it doesn't suddenly make them "civilised".
     
  17. lordrichter

    lordrichter Chieftain

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    I did not know that Anne Frank was such a well known conquest of the Spanish.
     
  18. Anima Croatorum

    Anima Croatorum Prince

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    The Spanish were not aware that germs existed at that time, and they were not looking for a new continent but a shorter route to India. So you can hardly blame them for a conspiracy to wipe out the natives with germ warfare.

    I sincerely doubt that the Native American rulers treated their subjects any better than the Spaniards did. And Spaniards did not sacrifice them to the Pollo Diablo and then eat them with chilli and maize.

    'Civilized' is in the eyes of beholder, and the only eyes that were left to behold were Christian.

    Bottom line, all religions represented in Civ 4 are not that different from one another, under all the folklore elements, they share the same moral values, values that are natural to a progressive human society, those that help it grow flourish and endure times of crisis. The Aztecs, Incas and Mayas religion did not have that, their empires fell when the challenge came.
     
  19. Dida

    Dida YHWH

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    Well, I think Paganism should be made into a religion, and it is by default that every civ will have this religion. But 2 civs both with paganism will not have "we care for brother/sister of the faith" positive modifier. You can build Pagan temples, but cannot build missionaries to spread it. So, a civ that is isolated and didn't found any religion on its own can still have a religion.
     
  20. Wolfwood

    Wolfwood Elite Commander

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    Whoa! Quite a leap there, mate! :eek:

    Go tell that to the socio-cultural researchers at your local university... ;)

    Different cultures have different values. End of story.
     

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