The African Origin of Ancient Egyptian Civilization

[Cynovolans]

Yes, he did, in another study. Unfortunately I can't find a link to it right now, but I do recall it was on Egyptsearch.

Looking at Egyptsearch, no results come up for the man who did the study, Joel Irish.

 

[Mentuhotep23]

I'm going with dentists on the origin of Egypt.

[The Egyptian] samples [996 mummies] exhibit morphologically simple, mass-reduced dentitions that are similar to those in populations from greater North Africa (Irish, 1993, 1998a–c, 2000) and, to a lesser extent, western Asia and Europe (Turner, 1985a; Turner and Markowitz, 1990; Roler, 1992; Lipschultz, 1996; Irish, 1998a). Similar craniofacial measurements among samples from these regions were reported as well (Brace et al., 1993)... an inspection of MMD values reveals no evidence of increasing phenetic distance between samples from the first and second halves of this almost 3,000-year-long period. For example, phenetic distances between First-Second Dynasty Abydos and samples from Fourth Dynasty Saqqara (MMD ¼ 0.050), 11-12th Dynasty Thebes (0.000), 12th Dynasty Lisht (0.072), 19th Dynasty Qurneh (0.053), and 26th–30th Dynasty Giza (0.027) do not exhibit a directional increase through time... Thus, despite increasing foreign influence after the Second Intermediate Period, not only did Egyptian culture remain intact (Lloyd, 2000a), but the people themselves, as represented by the dental samples, appear biologically constant as well... Gebel Ramlah [Neolithic Nubian/Western Desert sample] is, in fact, significantly different from Badari based on the 22-trait MMD (Table 4). For that matter, the Neolithic Western Desert sample is significantly different from all others [but] is closest to predynastic and early dynastic samples.[

And if we want to talk about cultural origins, I'm going to say they are somewhat similar to Berber people. Berbers build pyramid-like tombs, and had similar deities. They and the Egyptians shared a common practice of not eating cow flesh, and swine flesh because of their association with Set and Isis. Amun is also worshipped by both, depictions of rams(Amun) are found all over North Africa and dating back to the Neolithic Age. So I would say Ancient Egypt and the Berber people have a better chance of a common origin then Egypt with Nubia.

I've read Joel Irish's study. Keita criticizes Irish's conclusions in his articles stating that
the dental traits are more likely to be a product of "in situ microevolution" driven by dietary change rather than a mass migration of Eurasians into the Nile Valley.

Recently Irish and Turner (1990) and Turner and Markowitz (1990) have
suggested that the populations of Nubia and Egypt of the agricultural periods
were not primarily descendants of the geographical populations of
mesolithic/epipaleolithic times. Based on dental morphology, they postulate
an almost total replacement of the native/African epipaleolithic and neolithic
groups by populations or peoples from further north (Europe or the Near
East?). A similarity in dental traits is noted between epipaleolithic Nile valley
peoples and modern West Africans and also found for craniometrie traits
(Strouhal 1984). They argue that the rate of evolutionary change required to
achieve the later dentitions would be greater than that for epipaleolithic to ne-
olithic dental changes in other parts of the world, and see no reason why this
should be true in the lower Nile valley. They take issue with the well-known
post-Pleistocene/hunting dental reduction and simplification hypotheses which
postulate in situ microevolution driven by dietary change, with minimal gene
flow (admixture) (see Carlson and Van Gerven 1979).


However, as is well known and accepted, rapid evolution can occur. Also,
rapid change in northeast Africa might be specifically anticipated because of
the possibilities for punctuated microevolution (secondary to severe micro-
selection and drift) in the early Holocene Sahara, because of the isolated com-
munities and cyclical climatic changes there, and their possible subsequent
human effects. The earliest southern predynastic culture, Badari, owes key
elements to post-desiccation Saharan and also perhaps "Nubian" immigration
(Hassan 1988). Biologically these people were essentially the same (see above
and discussion; Keita 1990). It is also possible that the dental traits could have
been introduced from an external source, and increased in frequency primarily
because of natural selection, either for the trait or for a growth pattern requir-
ing less energy. There is no evidence for sudden or gradual mass migration of
Europeans or Near Easterners into the valley, as the term "replacement" would
imply. There is limb ratio and craniofacial morphological and metric continu-
ity in Upper Egypt-Nubia in a broad sense from the late paleolithic through
dynastic periods, although change occurred.
- Keita 1993

As far as Berbers are concerned, yes there are similarities in cultural tradition with Berbers and throughout the African continent but the archeological record indicates Egyptian origins lie to the South of Egypt not West in the Maghreb.

 

[Mentuhotep23]

Here's a recent study on Ancient Egyptian dental traits that supports Keita's contentions:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17786997

The question of the genetic origins of ancient Egyptians, particularly those during the Dynastic period, is relevant to the current study. Modern interpretations of Egyptian state formation propose an indigenous origin of the Dynastic civilization (Hassan, 1988). Early Egyptologists considered Upper and Lower Egyptians to be genetically distinct populations, and viewed the Dynastic period as characterized by a conquest of Upper Egypt by the Lower Egyptians. More recent interpretations contend that Egyptians from the south actually expanded into the northern regions during the Dynastic state unification (Hassan, 1988; Savage, 2001), and that the Predynastic populations of Upper and Lower Egypt are morphologically distinct from one another, but not sufficiently distinct to consider either non-indigenous (Zakrzewski, 2007). The Predynastic populations studied here, from Naqada and Badari, are both Upper Egyptian samples, while the Dynastic Egyptian sample (Tarkhan) is from Lower Egypt. The Dynastic Nubian sample is from Upper Nubia (Kerma). Previous analyses of cranial variation found the Badari and Early Predynastic Egyptians to be more similar to other African groups than to Mediterranean or European populations (Keita, 1990; Zakrzewski, 2002). In addition, the Badarians have been described as near the centroid of cranial and dental variation among Predynastic and Dynastic populations studied (Irish, 2006; Zakrzewski, 2007). This suggests that, at least through the Early Dynastic period, the inhabitants of the Nile valley were a continuous population of local origin, and no major migration or replacement events occurred during this time.

Studies of cranial morphology also support the use of a Nubian (Kerma) population for a comparison of the Dynastic period, as this group is likely to be more closely genetically related to the early Nile valley inhabitants than would be the Late Dynastic Egyptians, who likely experienced significant mixing with other Mediterranean populations (Zakrzewski, 2002). A craniometric study found the Naqada and Kerma populations to be morphologically similar (Keita, 1990). Given these and other prior studies suggesting continuity (Berry et al., 1967; Berry and Berry, 1972), and the lack of archaeological evidence of major migration or population replacement during the Neolithic transition in the Nile valley, we may cautiously interpret the dental health changes over time as primarily due to ecological, subsistence, and demographic changes experienced throughout the Nile valley region.

Source: Dental indicators of health and stress in early Egyptian and Nubian agriculturalists: a difficult transition and gradual recovery. American Journal of Physical Anthropology Dec;134(4):520-8 (2007)

 

[Cynovolans]

I've read Joel Irish's study. Keita criticizes Irish's conclusions in his articles stating that
the dental traits are more likely to be a product of "in situ microevolution" driven by dietary change rather than a mass migration of Eurasians into the Nile Valley.


As far as Berbers are concerned, yes there are similarities in cultural tradition with Berbers and throughout the African continent but the archeological record indicates Egyptian origins lie to the South of Egypt not West in the Maghreb.

The idea that the dental traits only changed because of diet is a guess, or a suggestion. Even in the article the only words I needed to read were "cautiously interpret".

I'm also looking at one of the articles you posted a few pages ago, from Egyptsearch. It has made a claim that domestic cattle arrived from south of Egypt. I don't know where they got this, but it is generally believed that cattle came to Egypt from the Levant. There is another theory that believes cattle were domesticated in Africa, and DNA supports this. But not in Sub-Saharan Africa, actually in the Western Sahara, even the oldest remains of domestic cattle in Africa were found in Algeria.

Another claim it makes is that gourds were domesticated by Nilo-Saharans in the years 7500-6000 B.C. This is very inaccurate, domestic gourds were brought to the Americas before this time. The origins of domestic gourds were most likely in Africa, but the domestication of gourds may even predate the Nilo-Saharan culture.

 

[Mentuhotep23]

The idea that the dental traits only changed because of diet is a guess, or a suggestion. Even in the article the only words I needed to read were "cautiously interpret".

It's a theory based on a variety of facts. The bottomline is that there is no evidence for mass migration of Europeans or Near Eastern peoples into the Nile Valley and craniometric analysis group the Ancient Egyptians with tropical Africans rather than the groups in question.

I'm also looking at one of the articles you posted a few pages ago, from Egyptsearch. It has made a claim that domesticate cattle arrived from south of Egypt. I don't know where they got this, but it is generally believed that cattle came to Egypt from the Levant. There is another theory that believes cattle were domesticated in Africa, and DNA supports this. But not in Sub-Saharan Africa, actually in the Western Sahara, even the oldest remains of domestic cattle in Africa were found in Algeria.

Another claim it makes is that gourds were domesticated by Nilo-Saharans in the years 7500-6000 B.C. This is very inaccurate, domestic gourds were brought to the Americas before this time. The origins of domestic gourds were most likely in Africa, but the domestication of gourds may even predate the Nilo-Saharan culture.

Can you provide sources for your claims? If so we can compare the literature.

 

[Cynovolans]

It's a theory based on a variety of facts. The bottomline is that there is no evidence for mass migration of Europeans or Near Eastern peoples into the Nile Valley and craniometric analysis group the Ancient Egyptians with tropical Africans rather than the groups in question.

Not really, DNA supports the Near Eastern and craniofacial evidence says Ancient Egyptians had almost nothing in common with Sub-Saharan Africans.
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/110532242/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12495079
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15202071
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17620140

Can you provide sources for your claims? If so we can compare the literature.

http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/cattle.htm
http://www.digitalegypt.ucl.ac.uk/foodproduction/cattle.html
http://www.plantzafrica.com/plantklm/lagensic.htm
http://pescadise.com/gourdfacts.html

 

[Mentuhotep23]

Not really, DNA supports the Near Eastern and craniofacial evidence says Ancient Egyptians had almost nothing in common with Sub-Saharan Africans.
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/110532242/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12495079
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15202071
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17620140

DNA doesn't support a Near Eastern origin for the Ancient Egyptians. It actually supports an East African origin.

A more recent dispersal out of Africa, represented by the E3b-M35 chromosomes, expanded northward during the Mesolithic (Underhill et al. 2001b). The East African origin of this lineage is supported by the much larger variance of the E3b-M35 males in Egypt versus Oman (0.5 versus 0.14; table 3). Consistent with the NRY data is the mtDNA expansion estimate of 10–20 ky ago for the East African M1 clade. Local expansions of this clade and subsequent demic movements may have resulted in the irregular presence of the M1 haplogroup in the Mediterranean area (Quintana-Murci et al. 1999).

Source: The Levant versus the Horn of Africa: Evidence for Bidirectional Corridors of Human Migrations The American Journal of Human Genetics Volume 74, Issue 3, March 2004, Pages 532-544

As for craniofacial measurements as I said before Brace's treatment of West/Central African populations as the only authentic Sub-Saharan is invalid. Direct comparisons between more southerly Africans such as the Nubians and Somali indicate that the Ancient Egyptians cluster with tropical Africans rather than Europeans or Near Easterners.

The metric studies suggest a broad biological affinity of early and south-
ern Nile valley peoples with other more southerly Africans. The kind of dis-
tinct geographical primary clusters of tropical Africans, Europeans, and
Pacific Islanders observed by Howells (1973) were not found to occur or be
suggested when Nile valley and more southern Africans were studied. The
southern affinities of the series are striking given that commonly held or stated
classical "racial" views of the Egyptians predict a notable distinction from
"Africans." Thus any scheme that labels Nubians and all Egyptians as a
"Caucasian" monotypic entity is seen to be a hypothesis which is easily falsi-
fied. Metric analyses in fact clearly suggest that at least southern "Egyptian"
groups were a part of indigenous holocene Saharo-tropical African variation.

Source: A brief review of Studies and Comments on Ancient Egyptian Biological Relationships International Journal of Anthropology Volume 10, Numbers 2-3 / April, 1995

I will take a look at the cattle evidence later.

 

[Cynovolans]

DNA doesn't support a Near Eastern origin for the Ancient Egyptians. It actually supports an East African origin..

I'm afraid one article isn't going to make my three invalid.

As for craniofacial measurements as I said before Brace's treatment of West/Central African populations as the only authentic Sub-Saharan is invalid. Direct comparisons between more southerly Africans such as the Nubians and Somali indicate that the Ancient Egyptians cluster with tropical Africans rather than Europeans or Near Easterners.

Then just look at Joel Irish's study, he came up with a similar conclusion when not just looking at the teeth.

 

[Mentuhotep23]

I'm afraid one article isn't going to make my three invalid.

I'm not invalidating the articles you cited but showing you an excerpt from a study that doesn't support the conclusions you are drawing from your studies.

Let's take a look at your studies......

1. Y-chromosome analysis in Egypt suggests a genetic regional continuity in Northeastern Africa.

2. A predominantly neolithic origin for Y-chromosomal DNA variation in North Africa.

3. Mitochondrial lineage M1 traces an early human backflow to Africa.

Now which one of these refutes the contentions of Luis et al. (2004) that the predominate lineage in Egypt, E3b expanded into the Nile Valley via carriers from East Africa during the Mesolithic?

Can you provide specific excerpts from these studies that supports a Near Eastern origin of the Ancient Egyptians?


The DNA evidence from Luis et al. (2004) is consistent with the archeological and linguistic evidence indicating that Afroasiatic speakers from tropical East Africa migrated into the Nile Valley and founded Dynastic Civilization which is outlined in the Ehret article that I cited.

Then just look at Joel Irish's study, he came up with a similar conclusion when not just looking at the teeth.

I've already covered Irish's research and provided counter sources.

 

[Cynovolans]

I'm not invalidating the articles you cited but showing you an excerpt from a study that doesn't support the conclusions you are drawing from your studies.

Let's take a look at your studies......

1. Y-chromosome analysis in Egypt suggests a genetic regional continuity in Northeastern Africa.

2. A predominantly neolithic origin for Y-chromosomal DNA variation in North Africa.

3. Mitochondrial lineage M1 traces an early human backflow to Africa.

Now which one of these refutes the contentions of Luis et al. (2004) that the predominate lineage in Egypt, E3b expanded into the Nile Valley via carriers from East Africa during the Mesolithic?

Can you provide specific excerpts from these studies that supports a Near Eastern origin of the Ancient Egyptians?


The DNA evidence from Luis et al. (2004) is consistent with the archeological and linguistic evidence indicating that Afroasiatic speakers from tropical East Africa migrated into the Nile Valley and founded Dynastic Civilization which is outlined in the Ehret article that I cited.



I've already covered Irish's research and provided counter sources.

1.I'll give you that one because I don't even remember where I got it.

2.

Since the estimates of the times to the most recent common ancestor (TMRCAs) of the most common haplogroups are quite recent, we suggest that the North African pattern of Y-chromosomal variation is largely of Neolithic origin. Thus, we propose that the Neolithic transition in this part of the world was accompanied by demic diffusion of Afro-Asiatic-speaking pastoralists from the Middle East.

3.

Both western and eastern M1 lineages participated in the Neolithic colonization of the Sahara.

M1 originated in Western Asia, and was brought to Africa during the Neolithic Age.

Are you also saying E3b is proof of Egypt's African origin? I hope you are aware that E3b is almost just as common in Southeast Europe(more in nations like Albania and Montenegro), and has always been mistaken for being African.

 

[Mentuhotep23]

2.

Since the estimates of the times to the most recent common ancestor (TMRCAs) of the most common haplogroups are quite recent, we suggest that the North African pattern of Y-chromosomal variation is largely of Neolithic origin. Thus, we propose that the Neolithic transition in this part of the world was accompanied by demic diffusion of Afro-Asiatic-speaking pastoralists from the Middle East.

This study proposes as demic expansion of E3b into North Africa from the Middle East during the Neolithic but acknowledges its East African origin and the possibility of it being a local contribution to the Neolithic transition.

Under the hypothesis of a Neolithic demic expansion from the Middle East, the likely origin of E3b in East Africa could indicate either a local contribution to the North African Neolithic transition (Barker 2003) or an earlier migration into the Fertile Crescent, preceding the expansion back into Africa.

Source: A Predominantly Neolithic Origin for Y-Chromosomal DNA Variation in North Africa American Journal of Human Genetics August; 75(2): 338–345. (2004)

We know however from Nebel et al. (2002) that Haplogroup J did not arrive in North Africa to any great extent prior to the Arab invasion.

Lower Egypt most certainly has been the
recipient of immigrants in ancient as well as
more recent times (Lucotte and Mercier,
2003). The delta region of Egypt has been
impacted by European (Graeco-Roman) and
Near Eastern peoples, the latter apparently
primarily during the Islamic and not
Neolithic period (Nebel et al., 2002).

Source: Exploring Northeast African Metric Craniofacial Variation at
the Individual Level: A Comparative Study Using Principal
Components Analysis AMERICAN JOURNAL OF HUMAN BIOLOGY 16:679–689 (2004)

Therefore E3b did not arrive in North Africa in conjunction Haplogroup J and a Middle Eastern demic diffusion.

3.

Both western and eastern M1 lineages participated in the Neolithic colonization of the Sahara.

M1 originated in Western Asia, and was brought to Africa during the Neolithic Age.

Even if we accept some back flow into Africa during the Neolithic period it doesn't mean that Ancient Egyptian civilization is of Near Eastern origin. The predominant Y-Chromosome lineage in Egypt is still E3b and its origins in East Africa are well-established as well as its expansion into the Nile Valley during the Mesolithic which is consistent with the archeological and linguistic evidence for a Southern origin of Ancient Egyptian culture.

As far as M1 is concerned there have been criticisms of this study which call its conclusions for an Asiatic origin of the haplogroup into question.

Mitochondrial DNA M1 haplogroup: A Response To Ana M. Gonzalez et al. 2007


According to a recent study the high frequency of M1 in a sedentary Egyptian village is evidence of an East African ancestral origin for the population.

The mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) diversity of 58 individuals from Upper Egypt, more than half (34 individuals) from Gurna, whose population has an ancient cultural history, were studied by sequencing the control-region and screening diagnostic RFLP markers. This sedentary population presented similarities to the Ethiopian population by the L1 and L2 macrohaplogroup frequency (20.6%), by the West Eurasian component (defined by haplogroups H to K and T to X) and particularly by a high frequency (17.6%) of haplogroup M1. We statistically and phylogenetically analysed and compared the Gurna population with other Egyptian, Near East and sub-Saharan Africa populations; AMOVA and Minimum Spanning Network analysis showed that the Gurna population was not isolated from neighbouring populations. Our results suggest that the Gurna population has conserved the trace of an ancestral genetic structure from an ancestral East African population, characterized by a high M1 haplogroup frequency. The current structure of the Egyptian population may be the result of further influence of neighbouring populations on this ancestral population.

Source: Mitochondrial DNA sequence diversity in a sedentary population from Egypt. Annuals of Human Genetics Jan;68(Pt 1):23-39. (2004)

Are you also saying E3b is proof of Egypt's African origin? I hope you are aware that E3b is almost just as common in Southeast Europe(more in nations like Albania and Montenegro), and has always been mistaken for being African.

It isn't mistaken as being African it IS of East African origin according to a variety of studies most notably Cruciani et al. (2004) which directly investigated its biogeographic origin.

We obtained an estimate of 25.6 thousand years (ky) (95% CI 24.3–27.4 ky) for the TMRCA of the 509 haplogroup E3b chromosomes, which is close to the 30±6 ky estimate for the age of the M35 mutation reported by Bosch et al. (2001) using a different method. Several observations point to eastern Africa as the homeland for haplogroup E3b—that is, it had (1) the highest number of different E3b clades (table 1), (2) a high frequency of this haplogroup and a high microsatellite diversity, and, finally, (3) the exclusive presence of the undifferentiated E3b* paragroup.

Our data show that haplogroup E3b appears as a collection of subclades with very different evolutionary histories. Haplogroup E-M78 was observed over a wide area, including eastern (21.5%) and northern (18.5%) Africa, the Near East (5.8%), and Europe (7.2%), where it represents by far the most common E3b subhaplogroup. The high frequency of this clade (table 1) and its high microsatellite diversity suggest that it originated in eastern Africa, 23.2 ky ago (95% CI 21.1–25.4 ky).

Source: Phylogeographic Analysis of Haplogroup E3b (E-M215) Y Chromosomes Reveals Multiple Migratory Events Within and Out Of Africa American Journal of Human Genetics Volume 74, Issue 5, May 2004, Pages 1014-1022

I'm well-aware that E3b is common in Southern European populations. This is due to a migration of East African derived populations out of Africa into Europe during the Neolithic. The discontinuity in craniofacial traits between Neolithic and Modern Europeans is evidence of this migration as outlined in Brace et al. (2006).

The assessment of prehistoric and recent human craniofacial dimensions supports the picture documented by genetics that the extension of Neolithic agriculture from the Near East westward to Europe and across North Africa was accomplished by a process of demic diffusion (11–15). If the Late Pleistocene Natufian sample from Israel is the source from which that Neolithic spread was derived, then there was clearly a SubSaharan African element present of almost equal importance as the Late Prehistoric Eurasian element. At the same time, the failure of the Neolithic and Bronze Age samples in central and northern Europe to tie to the modern inhabitants supports the suggestion that, while a farming mode of subsistence was spread westward and also north to Crimea and east to Mongolia by actual movement of communities of farmers, the indigenous foragers in each of those areas ultimately absorbed both the agricultural subsistence strategy and also the people who had brought it. The interbreeding of the incoming Neolithic people with the in situ foragers diluted the Sub-Saharan traces that may have come with the Neolithic spread so that no discoverable element of that remained. This picture of a mixture between the incoming farmers and the in situ foragers had originally been supported by the archaeological record alone (6, 9, 33, 34, 48, 49), but this view is now reinforced by the analysis of the skeletal morphology of the people of those areas where prehistoric and recent remains can be metrically compared.

Source: The questionable contribution of the Neolithic and the Bronze Age to European craniofacial form Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the USA January 3; 103(1): 242–247 (2006)

 

[MKGLouisville]

Oxford Encylopedia of Ancient Egypt

"Analysis of crania is the traditional approach to assessing ancient population origins, relationships, and diversity. In studies based on anatomical traits and measurements of crania, similarities have been found between Nile Valley crania from 30,000, 20,000 and 12,000 years ago and various African remains from more recent times (see Thoma 1984; Brauer and Rimbach 1990; Angel and Kelley 1986; Keita 1993). Studies of crania from southern predynastic Egypt, from the formative period (4000-3100 B.C.), show them usually to be more similar to the crania of ancient Nubians, Kushites, Saharans, or modern groups from the Horn of Africa than to those of dynastic northern Egyptians or ancient or modern southern Europeans."
(S. O. Y and A.J. Boyce, "The Geographical Origins and Population Relationships of Early Ancient Egyptians", in Egypt in Africa, Theodore Celenko (ed), Indiana University Press, 1996, pp. 20-33)

Limb Proportions

"The raw values in Table 6 suggest that Egyptians had the “super-Negroid” body plan described by Robins (1983).. This pattern is supported by Figure 7 (a plot of population mean femoral and tibial lengths; data from Ruff, 1994), which indicates that the Egyptians generally have tropical body plans. Of the Egyptian samples, only the Badarian and Early Dynastic period populations have shorter tibiae than predicted from femoral length. Despite these differences, all samples lie relatively clustered together as compared to the other populations." (Zakrzewski, S.R. (2003). "Variation in ancient Egyptian stature and body proportions". American Journal of Physical Anthropology 121 (3): 219-229.

More Southernly African language

".. the Horn of Africa certainly contributed more recently to the Near East, because based on linguistic re- construction and the principles of "least moves" and "greatest diversity." It is the geographical home of the ancestor of Afro-Asiatic languages, spoken primarily in Africa with one member in the Near East (Semitic) (Ehret 1984, 1995; Ruhlen 1987). Early Afro-Asiatic spread out from the Horn and did not come into Africa from Asia (brought by "Caucasians") as was believed at one time, and as is occasionally assumed by non-linguists (e.g., Barbujani and Pilastro 1993; Cavalli-Sforza and Cavalli-Sforza 1995). In fact, there is evidence for movement out of Africa at the very time some claim in-migration (Bar-Josef 1987). By the time of the radiation of Afro-Asiatic speakers there was already genetic differentiation in Africa due to African biohistorical processes.

S.O.Y. Keita and R. Kittles. The Persistence of Racial Thinking and the Myth of Racial Divergence, S. O. Y. Keita, Rick A. Kittles, American Anthropologist, New Series, Vol. 99, No. 3 (Sep., 1997), pp. 534-544)

Shouldn't the first reference be the end all conclusion to this debate, which in laymens terms is saying that the founders of Ancient Egypt resembled indigneous Black skinned Africans, than to anyone else?

 

[Mentuhotep23]

I've been waiting for Cynovolans to respond to my last post so we can get this discussion moving forward but it looks like he may be done.

Most people in this thread don't seem to be able to challenge the biological, archeological, linguistic or cultural evidence for Ancient Egyptians bio-cultural origins so it looks to me like the debate is over.

Hopefully we don't return to more strawmen about the arbitrariness of Blackness.

 

[Cynovolans]

I've lost interest.

Oh, and to support my personal Berber/Egyptian theory E3b is the most common Y-chromosome in Egypt. But more specifically it is E3b2, also dominant in Western Saharan countries, but a minority in Sub-Saharan countries.

 

[MKGLouisville]

Above are the plots from the 2009 Craniometric study conducted by Keita which unsurprisingly concludes that Ancient Nubians and Pre-Dynastic Egyptians were almost indistinguishable.

What I find ironic in this thread is that the issue taken up isn't with the indisputable evidence that the Ancient Egyptians were ethnically the closest to more Southernly Black skinned African populations, but rather with Ancient Egypt being called 'black' in the Western Social sense for that fact. It's so amazing how hypocritical 'some' people can be (especially anyone living in the Westernized World). As another poster stated earlier simple racial labels such as 'white' will suffice when Greece is concerned but 'Black' is too problematic when it comes to Ancient Egypt!

The National Geographic however doesn't have a problem with applying the social label 'Black' to the population that is ethnically the closest to the Ancient Egyptians, so you all do the math!

 

[Mentuhotep23]

I've lost interest.

Oh, and to support my personal Berber/Egyptian theory E3b is the most common Y-chromosome in Egypt. But more specifically it is E3b2, also dominant in Western Saharan countries, but a minority in Sub-Saharan countries.

You've lost interest but you're still making claims? Is this a hit and run?

As I stated earlier that Ancient Egyptians have their origins to the South of the country which is confirmed by archeology and linguistics, not west in the Maghreb so there is no support for the Egyptians having origins among the Berber. Both languages branches have origins in East Africa.

As far as genetics is concerned the predominant Egyptian Y-chromosome lineage is actually E3b-M35, which originated in East Africa, not E3b2. E3b-M35 is the predominant lineage in Egypt as well as Ethiopia.

M35 chromosomes are seen in the Oman, North African, and East African populations, as well as in the South African Khoisans (Underhill et al. 2000; Cruciani et al. Cruciani et al., 2002 F Cruciani, P Santolamazza, P Shen, V Macaulay, P Moral, A Olckers, D Modiano, S Holmes, G Destro-Bisol, V Coia, DC Wallace, PJ Oefner, A Torroni, LL Cavalli-Sforza, R Scozzari and PA Underhill, A back migration from Asia to sub-Saharan Africa is supported by high-resolution analysis of human Y-chromosome haplotypes, Am J Hum Genet 70 (2002), pp. 1197–1214. Article | PDF (475 K) | View Record in Scopus | Cited By in Scopus (140)2002; present study). There are three distinctive sublineages (E3b1-M78, E3b2-M123, and E3b3-M81) that display nonrandom distributions (fig. 1). E3b1-M78 predominates in Egypt and Ethiopia, E3b3-M123 in Oman, and E3b2-M81 in northwestern Africa.

Source: The Levant versus the Horn of Africa: Evidence for Bidirectional Corridors of Human Migrations American Journal of Human Genetics Volume 74, Issue 3, March 2004, Pages 532-544

 

[Cynovolans]

As I stated earlier that Ancient Egyptians have their origins to the South of the country which is confirmed by archeology and linguistics, not west in the Maghreb so there is no support for the Egyptians having origins among the Berber. Both languages branches have origins in East Africa.

Afro-Asiatic languages may have an East-African origin, but studies have proven over and over that the Sahara was repopulated during the Neolithic Age by people of Near-East origin. I'm not saying their origin is among the Berber, I'm saying the Berbers and Egyptians share the same Near Eastern origin, and are more akin to each other than the Nubians.

As far as genetics is concerned the predominant Egyptian Y-chromosome lineage is actually E3b-M35, which originated in East Africa, not E3b2. E3b-M35 is the predominant lineage in Egypt as well as Ethiopia.

E3b-M35 is the name of the whole Y-Chromosome, or more commonly called "E1b1b". E1b1b is the dominant Y-chromosome over all of North Africa, East Africa, West Asia, and Balkans. E3b2, or E1b1b1b, is a subclade of E3b-M35, it is dominant among the Berber people and during the Neolithic time there was a large increase in the Egyptians population of E3b2.

North African Y-chromosomal diversity is geographically structured and fits the pattern expected under an isolation-by-distance model. Autocorrelation analyses reveal an east-west cline of genetic variation that extends into the Middle East and is compatible with a hypothesis of demic expansion. This expansion must have involved relatively small numbers of Y chromosomes to account for the reduction in gene diversity towards the West that accompanied the frequency increase of Y haplogroup E3b2

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15202071

And I've heard conflicting results over whether E3b2 or E-M78 are dominant in Egypt, but E-M78 is of North-East African origin. The large influence it has on Ethiopia and Somalia is only due to recent migrations from most likely Egypt or Libya.

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/24/6/1300

Above are the plots from the 2009 Craniometric study conducted by Keita which unsurprisingly concludes that Ancient Nubians and Pre-Dynastic Egyptians were almost indistinguishable.

It isn't suprising because no one expects Keita to publish anything different.

 

[Mentuhotep23]

Afro-Asiatic languages may have an East-African origin, but studies have proven over and over that the Sahara was repopulated during the Neolithic Age by people of Near-East origin. I'm not saying their origin is among the Berber, I'm saying the Berbers and Egyptians share the same Near Eastern origin, and are more akin to each other than the Nubians.

Studies have proven over and over that the Neolithic revolution originated among East African agriculturalists who spread Out of Africa into the Near East THROUGH the Nile Valley (and west into the Maghreb) into the Near East and then further on into Europe. See the studies I quoted above.

There is no archeological evidence for Ancient Egyptian culture or even Berber cultures originating outside of Africa. Ancient Egyptian culture originated in Upper Egypt and they had biological and cultural affinities with more Southerly Africans. What you describe sounds alot like the long debunked Dynastic Race Theory.


http://www.wellesley.edu/CS/Mary/contents.html

On the Origins of the Egyptians Recent work on skeletons and DNA suggests that the people who settled in the Nile valley, like all of humankind, came from somewhere south of the Sahara; they were not (as some nineteenth-century scholars had supposed) invaders from the North. See Bruce G. Trigger, "The Rise of Civilization in Egypt," Cambridge History of Africa (Cambridge, Cambridge University Press, 1982), vol I, pp 489-90; S. O. Y. Keita, "Studies and Comments on Ancient Egyptian Biological Relationships," History in Africa 20 (1993) 129-54.

E3b-M35 is the name of the whole Y-Chromosome, or more commonly called "E1b1b". E1b1b is the dominant Y-chromosome over all of North Africa, East Africa, West Asia, and Balkans. E3b2, or E1b1b1b, is a subclade of E3b-M35, it is dominant among the Berber people and during the Neolithic time there was a large increase in the Egyptians population of E3b2.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15202071

And I've heard conflicting results over whether E3b2 or E-M78 are dominant in Egypt, but E-M78 is of North-East African origin. The large influence it has on Ethiopia and Somalia is only due to recent migrations from most likely Egypt or Libya.

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/24/6/1300

Where's your source for E-M78 in Ethiopia and Somalia being due to recent migrations?

It isn't suprising because no one expects Keita to publish anything different.

Are you questioning Keita's objectivity?

 

[MKGLouisville]

It isn't suprising because no one expects Keita to publish anything different.

That's childish! Keita is an authority in his field and his research has yet to be refuted. Keita's findings in fact have even been referenced by outspoken Afrocentric critics Mary Lefkowitz, who ironically concedes to the fact that the Ancient Egyptians came from more Southernly Africa 9were black).

Lefkowitz cites Keita 1993 in Not Out of Africa. Here is Keita on the Jebel Moya studies:
"Overall, when the Egyptian crania are evaluated in a Near Eastern (Lachish) versus African (Kerma, Jebel Moya, Ashanti) context) the affinity is with the Africans. The Sudan and Palestine are the most appropriate comparative regions which would have 'donated' people, along with the Sahara and Maghreb. Archaeology validates looking to these regions for population flow (see Hassan 1988)... Egyptian groups showed less overall affinity to Palestinian and Byzantine remains than to other African series, especially Sudanese."
S. O. Y. Keita, "Studies and Comments on Ancient Egyptian Biological Relationships," History in Africa 20 (1993) 129-54

Your theory that the Ancient Egyptians were Berbers is nothing more than wishful thinking on your part, which in turn is backed by NOTHING! On the other hand mainstream science backs the fact that the Ancient Egyptians were ethnically the closest to more Southernly Black Africans, particularly Ancient Nubians!

Oxford Encyclopedia of Ancient Egypt

This is the Mainstream view!

Oxford Encyclopedia of Ancient Egypt


"Analysis of crania is the traditional approach to assessing ancient population origins, relationships, and diversity. In studies based on anatomical traits and measurements of crania, similarities have been found between Nile Valley crania from 30,000, 20,000 and 12,000 years ago and various African remains from more recent times (see Thoma 1984; Brauer and Rimbach 1990; Angel and Kelley 1986; Keita 1993). Studies of crania from southern predynastic Egypt, from the formative period (4000-3100 B.C.), show them usually to be more similar to the crania of ancient Nubians, Kushites, Saharans, or modern groups from the Horn of Africa than to those of dynastic northern Egyptians or ancient or modern southern Europeans."
(S. O. Y and A.J. Boyce, "The Geographical Origins and Population Relationships of Early Ancient Egyptians", in Egypt in Africa, Theodore Celenko (ed), Indiana University Press, 1996, pp. 20-33)

"There is no archaeological, linguistic, or historical data which indicate a European or Asiatic invasion of, or migration to, the Nile Valley during First Dynasty times. Previous concepts about the origin of the First Dynasty Egyptians as being somehow external to the Nile Valley or less native are not supported by archaeology... In summary, the Abydos First Dynasty royal tomb contents reveal a notable craniometric heterogeneity. Southerners predominate. (Kieta, S. (1992) Further Studies of Crania From Ancient Northern Africa: An Analysis of Crania From First Dynasty Egyptian Tombs, Using Multiple Discriminant Functions. AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY 87:245-254)"

Nothing in these passages sugguest that the early Ancient Egyptians were anything but an indigenous African population, most related to other more Southerly, tropically adapted, Black skinned African populations, anything else presented without evidence is wishful thinking on your part. It's 2010 it's time to get past the myth that anything good to come out of the world is accredited to light skinned populations, the facts are clear and IN YOUR FACE, the Ancient Egyptians were black Africans.

 

[Cynovolans]

Studies have proven over and over that the Neolithic revolution originated among East African agriculturalists who spread Out of Africa into the Near East THROUGH the Nile Valley (and west into the Maghreb) into the Near East and then further on into Europe. See the studies I quoted above.

What? Are you being sarcastic by ignoring basic facts? It is a well established fact that the Nile Valley received crops from the Fertile Crescent. It is obvious by the fact they grew the same crops, while agriculture in Africa developed in either Ethiopia, the Sahel, or West Africa. They grew crops much different then Egypt.

http://books.google.com/books?id=JA...=result#v=onepage&q=Africa, neolithic&f=false
Smith, Philip E.L., Stone Age Man on the Nile, Scientific American Vol. 235 No. 2, August 1976

There is no archeological evidence for Ancient Egyptian culture or even Berber cultures originating outside of Africa. Ancient Egyptian culture originated in Upper Egypt and they had biological and cultural affinities with more Southerly Africans. What you describe sounds alot like the long debunked Dynastic Race Theory.

The Dynastic Race Theory was debunked because it was built on the idea that Dynastic Egypt was built by invaders from Mesopotamia, not that the people from the Near East had migrated thousands of years before the Dynastic Race theory during the desertification of the Sahara. Do you even know that theory was not debunked because the people were then thought to possess no Mesopotamian influence, but because the influences spread back to the Pre-dynastic era? And what is this cultural and biological affinities? That Nubians had an entirely different language? That Nubians did not even adopt Egyptian culture until the New Kingdom domination of the region? That Nubians lack the E3b2 Y-chromosomes which Egyptians and Berbers share?

Where's your source for E-M78 in Ethiopia and Somalia being due to recent migrations?

Try the link beneath the paragraph.

Are you questioning Keita's objectivity?

I want to know if there is any other craniofacial studies and research that support Keita, because nearly everything you have posted is involved with Keita. Brace and Irish are backed up by several other studies in their research, W. Howells has the same conclusion in his book "Skull Shapes and the Map", and A. Froment in his "Race et Histoire: La recomposition ideologique de l'image des Egyptiens anciens".