The big question: Workers first, or not?

[Luhh]

Well, I guess the lesson is "to each their own" hehe. That's what I love about civ, is so many different tactics work toward the same goal. None of that RTS stuff like "build this this this this and this in THIS order otherwise you'll be dead".

I'd say it's exactly the same thing...

The way that offers the greatest advantage is the "right" way to go. But because of civilization choice and spawning start layout, the "right" way isn't always easy to see. The same goes for RTS games, with different races and maps. But here you have on factor more which is psycology, an objectively poor strategy can turn out to be a good one if it isn't expected.

BTW OT: Anytime won the Starleague! Protoss fighting! Defeated players like Xellos, Oov and Boxer along the way. Hasn't been a champion this worthy in BW since Julyzerg. (For those of us who like RTS games, and those of us who really like RTS games only like BW, because of the great diversity and balance it has.) From quarterfinal to final he defeated 3 terran players in a row, all 3 previous starleague champions and all currently doing well, on maps that could be considered favoring terran over protoss somewhat.

 

[MSTK]

I agree. BW is the best RTS ever made, and it holds that title even to this day.

 

[dh_epic]

I sometimes build a worker right off the bat. Sometimes build it once the city hits 3 or 4 population. And other times, I procrastinate on the worker entirely.

There's more than one way to win. Workers and tree chops are valuable, but whether you have this at 3400 BC or 500 BC is really up to you.

 

[GamesMan]

Yes, I agree with "777", we are lucky to be able to discuss and debate the strategy of a game such as Civ4. One thing I can't stand about most RTS is the "build order"; stray from the "best" build order, and you lose, period. Not so in this game. What to do in Civ4 from the very start varies so much as to have an entire thread or two devoted to it.

My only gripe strategicly with Civ4 is the endgame; new unit technologies get researched faster than I could EVER build them, and so far, out of 4 solo, and 2 multi, the AI won every time with SS building (no way to stop them, EVEN when they only had one city left??? )

 

[Wlauzon]

A worker is usually the first UNIT I build. But quite often I will build something else first, like a barracks just to allow the city time to get to size 2 at least, and usually 3 or 4.

A city grows and builds much faster with a worker, especially if there are forests around.

The best way to really find the best strategy would probably be to start a normal game, with no barbs and only one civ around to help eliminate random factors, save it, and then try various ways up to a set point, say 0 AD and compare where you end up at. I started that once, but got sidetracked, so I should go back and revisit it just so I know in my only little brain what really IS the best way. (of course, it will probably vary with leader traits also).

 

[phungus420]

As your city gets larger you will build the worker faster (more surplus food and shields), so it just seems logical to me to build the worker once you hit pop 2,or 3 (depending). Usualy I first build a warior, and hit pop 2 around the same time, then I'll start production on a barracks or archer or stonhenge (depending on the situation) until the city reaches pop 3, then I switch over to a worker. But that's just me, and it really depends on the starting location. I havn't tried the chop rush yet, but it looks powerfull, so I think I might.

 

[Bezhukov]

"Two pop > One pop ... there can be no discussion of that..."

Um, no.

One pop working a farmed food bonus is better than two pop working unimproved terrain. What people are fogetting is the two food it costs to support that second pop - it's not cost free. The math is tricky and somewhat counter-intuitive, but it is almost always better to build the worker first and research what he needs to get that first food bonus tile improved.

If you have the option of building a workboat to fire up a fish tile, then things are more complicated...

 

[Mathduck]

Does anybody else build SETTLERs first?

I play solo on "prince". The first city builds settlers instantly which takes mostly 25 turns. The new city build settler, too and the first city another settler.
With 4 cities the first barbarians arrive and i build a warrior in each city.
After that i build settlers until no free land is left. The beginning unit is always used to fend of barbarians and to protect a settler on way to build a new city.
I have "sailing" at this point and if i can reach land with a tirieme i still build only settlers and one warrior in new cities. Well at some point expansion stops.
At that point i build the first workers.
With this approach i am the largest Civilization in most games. And more cities build more armies and more libraries. Ok, tax rate is nearly 100% and science is very slow at first, but i catch on later.

 

[GreenMonkey]

I like to wait to build the worker or settler until size 2.

Normally to grow to size 2 takes 8 turns or so. And the wait reduces the build time for the worker 2-5 turns (depending on resources).

So IMO it's better to wait for size 2 before going for a worker.

 

[Corrado]

I usually build a worker right away, and use the 15 turns it takes to research whatever techs I need to get him productive (Hunting, Agriculture, Pottery, etc.).

As Bezhukov said: one person working an improved special space is nearly always better than two people working non-improved spaces. And it's been extremely rare for me to start a game (even on Monarch) without at least one special resource in range.

 

[walkerjks]

Does anybody else build SETTLERs first?

I play solo on "prince". The first city builds settlers instantly which takes mostly 25 turns. The new city build settler, too and the first city another settler.

Much of the build worker first strategy is based on selective deforestation. You build a worker in 15 turns (at the same time research bronze working). Once you have the worker, cut down 2 nearby forests (inside or just outside the city area - depends on if you want to keep nearby forest). That takes about 10 turns to get the settler.

So under your scheme, after 25 turns you have 1 settler.

Under the worker chop scheme, after 25 turns you have 1 worker, 1 settler, and 2 less forest tiles (possibly outside the boundaries, so no negative impact on health).

 

[Mujadaddy]

"Two pop > One pop ... there can be no discussion of that..."

Um, no.

One pop working a farmed food bonus is better than two pop working unimproved terrain. What people are fogetting is the two food it costs to support that second pop - it's not cost free. The math is tricky and somewhat counter-intuitive, but it is almost always better to build the worker first and research what he needs to get that first food bonus tile improved.

If you have the option of building a workboat to fire up a fish tile, then things are more complicated...

Depending on starting technology, obviously, we're going to have to agree to disagree here. If I'm waiting 30 turns for Animal Husbandry (due to researching mining or whatnot first), there's NO WAY you can convince me that having ONE farm tile and ONE population is better than having TWO population working on ANYTHING else....perhaps I've just been (extremely) lucky with every single game's starting location, but the +1 food isn't even a consideration....neither is animal husbandry, unless I started with some animals in the city radius...If I'm not even going to be able to PLACE a farm for X number of turns, I'm CERTAINLY growing and doing other things while I wait for the tech...

Unless the land is VERY good or VERY bad, I always grow before I stop my growth. Food, Hammers, Coins are all RESULTS......Population is how you achieve them....everything else is how you min/max them...

 

[incubuspawn]

This depends on how close another civ is to me. If they are very close I will need to get 2 settlers out very fast. So I do not do a worker at first. IF they are far away, Ill then make a worker because Ill want to build more settlers later without the immediate need to build 2 now. I actually have a border line for this, if they are closer than 1 and a half city lenghts away form me, I spam out 2 settlers first. if they are further, I make the worker first. another way to see this is. You can build 2 settlers faster than a worker and 2 settlers, or you can build a worker and 5 settlers faster than you can jut build 5 settlers.

 

[Gnarfflinger]

You need to connect to resources ASAP. Especially if you have Horses.

I usually go Worker then Barracks, then Archer. Before too long, I have Horse Archers (Keshiks when I play the Mongols, I like them...)

 

[Aznmask]

build a worker first is must!! because you need it to build farm (so u get more food to get more population) or mine to get more hammer. Secondly you can cut tree to get hammer to get your settlers out faster so u can build your second, third city. Well atleast my civlization alway get ahead... of everyone..

 

[Mathduck]

Thanks for explaining @walkerjks

I am still adapting to the new things of Civ4, some old tactics don´t work well and after the first games i even read the civilopedia

 

[Jkaen]

I often play as Ghandi, build stonehenge as first build ! (tend to focus on economy on citizen allocation intially to grab religion(s))

 

[LostKing]

Well, the best is a work boat. No pop loss and super food. But one has to be pretty lucky to get a good coastal start.

 

[nevs69]

I pump out lots of warriors first, then go for the worker... gotta make sure you reveal the area around you!

EDIT: I agree with LostKing though. If it is a coastal city with fish or anything in the water, then i always build a work boat first.

 

[Mr. Blonde]

originally posted by Mathduck
Does anybody else build SETTLERs first?

I play solo on "prince". The first city builds settlers instantly which takes mostly 25 turns. The new city build settler, too and the first city another settler.
With 4 cities the first barbarians arrive and i build a warrior in each city.
After that i build settlers until no free land is left. The beginning unit is always used to fend of barbarians and to protect a settler on way to build a new city.
I have "sailing" at this point and if i can reach land with a tirieme i still build only settlers and one warrior in new cities. Well at some point expansion stops.
At that point i build the first workers.
With this approach i am the largest Civilization in most games. And more cities build more armies and more libraries. Ok, tax rate is nearly 100% and science is very slow at first, but i catch on later.

This works? The animals don´t attack your first settlers? Another thing is to uncover enough land to spot good city sites. How much deficit do you run as maintainance? I´ll have to try this one but it seems very risky at first sight.

To the topic: If you have enough 3 (food+hammer) fields you gain 1 extra production for workers/settlers with each growth. Typically there are 3 of these at my starts. My starts are typically warriors until size 3 (I find extra scouting more important than building a barrack), worker then maybe another warrior or the barracks then settler at size 4-5. Immediately going for a worker would hurt science too much, imo.