The Celts versus the Iroquois

[Calis]

if i have iron, the celts.

if i have horses, or horses and iron, the iroquois

if i have nothing, the iroquois.

Too bad you have to chose the tribe before you know the available resources.

 

[Richie0]

true, but i find the iroquois more flexible. if they have no resources they can still do peaceful building ridiculously well. the celts can do it decently, but not as good. lack of iron really cripples them and forces you to change strategies.

 

[shl7070]

The AI tells who's better.
I had 9 cases in which Celts met Iroquois. Result: Iroquois-7, Celts-2 and of the 7, in 4 cases the Celts were wiped out by Iroquois while nobody wiped Iroquois completely. At least the AI plays Iroquois better. In the case they didn't go to war the Iroquois were more advanced after medieval then Celts.
It's also telling that for AI to destroy AI Iroquois it usually needs SoZ.

 

[HagiaSophia]

I prefer the Celts- I think being able to flick from governments is better than being able to get more money/less corruption. It really helps in wars; switch to Communism, kill enemy, switch back to Demo/Monarchy.

 

[del62]

I may be wrong here but horses seem more abundant than iron on most maps, which obviously helps the iriqois.

The starting techs of the iriqois also seems more helpful, you can research wheel to locate resources, that said the celts can build warriors for upgrades immediately.

 

[Ataxerxes]

I like the Iriquois better. The Gallic Warrior is a better unit, but is more expensive and has a worse upgrade path. I like the Iriquois traits more as well.

My onl Iriquois problem is the ultra-early Golden Age.

 

[creamcheese]

My onl Iriquois problem is the ultra-early Golden Age.

To be fair, this is a problem with the Celts as well. The usual strategy is to try and slingshot to a better government and then immediately go on a rampage. You probably need some time to REX and store up your UUs anyway, so it works out nicely and you avoid the despotic GA.

That said, I prefer the Iros, if only for the ability to do something other than early wars. Also, iron or horses are decent for you to get. Obviously horses is better, but if you get iron instead you can use it to acquire some horses

 

[Whomp]

I'm surprised there's so much love for the Celts compared to the Iroquois. Other than for culture victories I'm not sure I could make a case.

30 shields vs 40 shields in the AA? 40 is such a tough number in the AA and 30 has nice multiples at 5, 6 or 10 shields with no waste and likely to the benefit of growth.

Iron is in hills or mountains vs. grass, plains or hills for horses meaning less work for workers in all likelihood.

Better upgrade path to knights and cavalry for the mid-game. Early rushes with a warrior to GS by connecting and disconnecting iron, maybe?

Ag is obviously the most overpowering trait but I fail to see where religious has much benefit especially compared to commercial's extra commerce/science output on less corrupted gold.
How many govts. do people use or religious buildings for that matter?

 

[vmxa]

I would go along with all you mentioned, but upgrades are too expensive in most games for MW to Knight. The Celts can make it easier to war early, but their UU upgrades are not so good, unless it is AW, where you will need them and they are pretty cheap upgrades. In a semi peaceful game, I do not like upgrades for sword types or MDI.

 

[Ataxerxes]

I'm surprised there's so much love for the Celts compared to the Iroquois. Other than for culture victories I'm not sure I could make a case.

30 shields vs 40 shields in the AA? 40 is such a tough number in the AA and 30 has nice multiples at 5, 6 or 10 shields with no waste and likely to the benefit of growth.

Iron is in hills or mountains vs. grass, plains or hills for horses meaning less work for workers in all likelihood.

Better upgrade path to knights and cavalry for the mid-game. Early rushes with a warrior to GS by connecting and disconnecting iron, maybe?

Ag is obviously the most overpowering trait but I fail to see where religious has much benefit especially compared to commercial's extra commerce/science output on less corrupted gold.
How many govts. do people use or religious buildings for that matter?

Thanks for those reasons. I preferred the Iriquois before reading for first 3 reasons which I hadn't considered. Most players only do one govt. change so religious is weaker than Agricultural for most players. Some who like Communism might get more mileage out of it but Ag is still the strongest trait for most players.

I actually agree with what Darski has said in other threads. The Iriquois may be the best Civilization of all. The strongest trait with another good trait and a top UU.

 

[Lanzelot]

The Iroquois are definitely better, but there is one advantage that the Celts have over the Iroquois, which no one mentioned yet:
For your early war mongering you can use disconnect/reconnect with the Celts, but you can't with the Iroquois... (Disconnect the iron, build warriors, reconnect the iron and upgrade the warriors to Gallic Swords. You can't do this with the Iroquois, because if you disconnect the horses, you can't build chariots either... )

 

[Whomp]

Actually, I kinda mentioned it as an option and we did use it as an effective strategy in SGOTM 6.