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The Chinese

Discussion in 'Civ3 Strategy Articles' started by Ision, Feb 18, 2004.

  1. Ision

    Ision Master

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2003
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    452
    Bello,

    BTW, I lived in Germany for 3 years (Nordrhine-westffallen), my wife is German and I visit the country every 2 years. Wonderful country - with a rich and highly cultural history. perhaps I will do a review of 'germany' after I finish the French.

    Take care, and 'herz und beinbruch' lol

    Ision
     
  2. Commander Bello

    Commander Bello Say No 2 Net Validations

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2003
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    3,794
    Location:
    near Koblenz, Germany
    Ision,

    again, I did not mean to offend you.
    All I wanted to do was to point out that *in my eyes* you missed some things being worth to mention as well.

    But, what I am really interested in, would be to have the chance to read your articles concerning Mayans and Germans.

    "Herzliche Grüße an Heike und Dich!"
     
  3. Zardnaar

    Zardnaar Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2003
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    3,660
    Location:
    Dunedin, New Zealand
    So the Chinese strategy is basically "attack". looking forward to the French review. A French review will be interesting.

    Ision is one reason why you don't rate a civ numerically is that theres to many variables? Persias a great civ but Englands better on Islands, Greece is better at research, Babylon at culture etc. I'm reasonably new at this game but there only 2-3 civs I think are bad the rest being good and a handful being in the excellent range. Even the "bad" civs can be decent if you play to the trait combo (or lack of) and make maximum use of the UU.
     
  4. Ision

    Ision Master

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2003
    Messages:
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    exactly!

    correct again!

    That is also why I have basically divided the CIVs into 3rds....... 1st tier, 2nd tier and 3rd tier. This is in order to give the reader an idea of where the CIV stands in relation to the other CIVs -while NOT engageing in a non-productive, "whose number 1 - and whose numer 2 debate" Even so, I still get plenty of argument, especially when I say '3rd tier' !

    Sincerely, Ision
     
  5. yankees

    yankees Chieftain

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    Jan 4, 2004
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    48
    another great review!!!!
     
  6. yankees

    yankees Chieftain

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    Jan 4, 2004
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    My last 3 games have been with China. The review and the debate that came after were really helpful. One thing is for sure, for warmongerring China is GREAT!! and the RIDERS are awesome.

    hey Ision, thanks again for a great article.
     
  7. troytheface

    troytheface Chieftain

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2002
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    on the tier rating thing where u posted all the civs u have reviewed it shows China as listed as a #1 tier civ. (In this review they are listed as a #2) I like how u break down the civs into #1 for war # 2 as a builder ect. and in some instances by map -however, from a broader perspective i suggest that there are lots of civs with knight UU's, and this would seem to negate the high impact of one's own UU if it too is a knight replacement-Keshiks/Samarii/Conquistidors/Swiss Mercs/Elephants/Ansars can all take out Riders. One could argue the same for ancient UU civs but i would say that the expansion phase is a different dynamic -attacking a half established Civ with ur UU u can rake in alot of tech prior to next age and it's unit upgrades about to come...-That rider is viable for a long time ...but for War i would use the Aztecs, Hittites, or Mongols over China.
     
  8. Ision

    Ision Master

    Joined:
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    troytheface,

    Thanks for pointing out that improper tier ranking. I have edited the original post to reflect a a tier ranking of -1st overall. At the time that I wrote the review I had yet to make a definitive list of what my overall tier rankings would be. Later on, upon reflection I realized that China's average builder qualties and the change to Industrious are not enough to offset the overwhelming advantages they have as warmonger with a UU that is among the top 5 or 6. That, along with ability to launch among the most cost efficient and effective of ultra-early wars (in spite of their UU coming later) cemented the fact for me.

    Once again, thanks for pointing out my failure to make a proper edit.

    Ision
     
  9. maothatroared

    maothatroared Chieftain

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    First off, hats off to Ision for his lucid and well-crafted entries in the annals of the war academy. They're a pleasure to read whether one agrees with his observations or not.

    I had the timely pleasure of reading the assessment of the China tribe whilst in the midst of a game in which Ision's remarks about the strength of the Rider were proven empirically accurate. Using my medieval warriors and pikemen, I was finishing off Spain while beating back a Mongol assault of a dozen archers at about 400 AD when my first Rider was created. Not wanting to fight a two-front war, I negotiated a peace treaty with the Mongols and used the rider to capture Spain's last city, thus completing both conflicts and kicking off a GA.

    It took me about a dozen peacetime turns to build a nice army of a dozen riders and a like number of medieval warriors which I then positioned at the gates of three India cities. Two turns later, the Riders cutting through spearmen like a hot knife through butter, five cities were mine. Two more turns and three more cities fell -- and I didn't lose one unit in the process.

    The best outcome was when the War Elephants attacked my Riders, some down a battle point or two, and I lost nary a one. Several times I did have to retreat and fortify, but I was capturing cities so fast there was no lack of sanctuary close by.

    India will be gone by the completiion of my next turn. I just hope I have time to regroup and direct the wrath of the Riders on the Mongols before they develop Pikemen. If so, I'll command all of Europe, all of Africa and a good bit of Central Asia before anyone get gunpowder.

    As Ision says, Riders aren't good, they're grrrreat!
     
  10. Olli513

    Olli513 Launch torpedo number 3!

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    Finland
    there is a solution,use the editor.
    (just reminding)
     
  11. mikezang

    mikezang Pegasus

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Tokyo
    I play China in Tiny map on Monarch and won almost, my strategy is as below:
    1. Discovery Poettry, Bornze, Iron until Monarchy, then for Rider in Middle Age
    2. Build Ganarry in Beijing or cities near Beijing for Settler factory
    3. Defeat AI civs on the same continent after Discover Iron
    4. Win by Rider or Cavalry
     
  12. ForbiddenPalace

    ForbiddenPalace Chieftain

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    The review is very impressive. Unfortunately I rarely paly as China.
     
  13. Holy Despot

    Holy Despot Chieftain

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    Location:
    Bucharest,Romania
    mikezang you should start playing on emperor!And remember the bigger the map the harder it gets.I played the germans,tiny,monarch(won before entering in the ind age) then I played the chinese,small,emperor I got bombed by ICBM's but still won by conquest!(mobilization+industrious+factories=Total Victory).:)
    Ision your articles are amazing.I read them and I can't get enough of them.
    You are talented,keep up the good work.:goodjob:
     
  14. Mirc

    Mirc Not mIRC!!!

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    Düsseldorf, ->Germany, E.U.
    Me too!!! I hate the color and the city names! I think I'll change it in "Greece" and make them green just because I like this much more than light blue.
     
  15. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    Sure this comes as old, but these still get read, so I may as well post my thoughts here. I really haven't played China... but, I would expect the article here has hit the nail right on the head about them having faster military production than most tribes. I think it really even goes further than this. Any industrious tribe can plant, chop forests, and then re-work/work those tiles faster than other tribes. So, have a corrupt area, but really need an extra rider or defensive unit or even an artillery? Plant and chop and you'll get it fairly quickly. And, I think there's even something more to China.

    For those familar with Moonsinger's excellent "effective use of artillery" article, you'll know it relies on three things working in combination really

    1. Settler placement properly near a town you want to take or raze with a few defensive units.
    2. Artillery proper.
    3. 3 movement *units*.... to minimize losses

    Now, her article comes as intended for upper levels mostly or games you really want to pick things up for whatever reason. So, it talks about artillery and cavalry vs. infrantry. But... say you don't have saltpeter and you've played as China (maybe that's an interesting variant... no saltpeter allowed as China), but you've got horses and iron. Say you also even enter the industrial ages at about the same time as the AIs. The AIs often will ignore the Steam Power-Electricity-Replacable Parts path for a bit, paritally since they ignore Electricity somewhat and don't see Replacable Parts. So, if you beeline to Replacable Parts (maybe even forget Industrialization) and you play as China, then you would have riders, artillery proper, and hopefully infantry as defensive units vs. rifles. That should make for a not too bad war even with a fairly fast tech pace whereby you can acquire saltpeter, or pummel an AI or two so that they don't have rubber or to death. Through in easy promotions to elites and I wonder about how well China can warmonger throughout the entire industrial age without any saltpeter whatsoever.
     
  16. Theov

    Theov Chieftain

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    Taiwan
    I played with China for the first time this week (as far as I can remember).
    I was blown away by the fast workers, the faster military upgrades (hello armies) and the Rider.

    In the Monarch game, I slingshot Republic, maintained peace throught the AA, went Invention -> Feudalism -> Chivalry, pre-made Leo's and Sun Tzu's, researched Chivalry to get Riders and upgraded all my horsemen at 60 gold a piece. I only needed 1200 gold to upgrade to 20 of them.
    By that time I had a military, economy and production that was beyond anything the AI could remotely keep up with.

    The Rider is so fast, you can transport them to the front lines from all over your empire, making wars short, effective and devastating.
    Another thing I noticed was that I hardly used any bombardment because the Riders advance the battlefield so much faster than the trebuchets can keep up with.
    The retreat feature makes the idea of bombardment somewhat obsolete!
    Oh and did I mention the armies? That makes them even a step faster.

    So to sum it up, you have quickly developed land and even before your first quick war you get your UU for a low price (upgraded Horsemen), then you're entering a GA that quickly produces practically unbeatable units that you can move to the battlefronts quickly.

    I love it and compared to any other combination, this is just a lethal triple thread for warmongers.
     

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