The Cradles of Civilization in Civ V

CivOasis said:
Frankly, if I'm reading you wrong, then you're probably stating that either one civilization founded everyone else, or that civilization doesn't even exist.

Stop strawmanning me :rolleyes:.

You would also be wrong. Consider 'Javanese' civilization1 and explain to me how it was 'founded' with reference to other civilization's ideas. The biggest impediment to notion of Chinese tutelage or the diffusion of Chinese ideas to Java is that we don't have a shred of evidence of it happening. None, nada, nil. Not a single piece of evidence of Chinese influence during the formative period of Javanese civilization in the period 1200BC to 800BC: no seals, no art, nothing.

Even more damning is that the earliest probable mention of Java in Chinese sources is 413AD. And even this source - the Buddhist pilgrims Fa-Hsien and Gunavarman - is problematic because Yeh-p o-t-i is only assumed to be the same as Yavadvipa which is usually associated with Java but could also refer to places like southern Sumatra and southern Borneo amongst others. Even if we assume that this was indeed in reference to Java and that contact is the same as influence (it isn't) then we're still left with the indissoluble problem that Java has been doing civilized stuff since at least 1200BC. So there's a 1600 year gap to reconcile with this influence view as well.

Moreover, what outside influences we do know had an impact came through the Dong Song material culture which, we think, originated from Tonkin/Northern Vietnam. The problem with the Dong Song culture is that it spread into southern China, not the other way round. Thus Dong Sung artistic motifs, expressed in some wonderful ceremonial drums, infiltrated and influenced southern China.2 The problem with Dong Song as an outside influence and stimulant on Javanese civilization is that it arrived after the reference period, and moreover didn't 'civilize' anyone. It gave the Javanese a new set of symbols and artistic stylings to play around with. But it didn't create Javanese civilization. The most that scholars tend to claim the Dong Sung culture left was the design of the Kris, which isn't all that probable, and the Moko drums of Alor and her surrounding islands. The latter of which might be based on the Dong Sung drums but which I'm more inclined to view as a coincidence. People don't tend to be able to maintain in situ two millennia old customs.

I suppose my position in respect of Java is the far more boring notion that Java developed a distinct civilization under her own steam and that it like all others incorporated elements from other civilizations as a matter of course. Hence the Buddhism of the Saliendras or the Saivaite Hinduism of Majapahit.3 But that this influence need not suggest that Java developed because of it, on the contrary what influence that did occur occurred after a distinct Javanese culture had developed and was moreover inoculated in Javanese culture under Javanese terms to serve Javanese (monarchical) interests. This should never be taken to suggest subserviance or that these outside elements created Javaense civilization and should suggest otherwise: a mature civilization taking its pick of those outside elements best suited to its needs. Which is a radical departure whatever you say from the (new or old) formulation that you've been pushing.

1. In aggregate, Java's history is complex. The Brantas and Sala didn't give us the Tarumanagara of the 300s which is the earliest polity we have evidence for.
2. There's also an argument that it discovered bronze first in Asia and that southern and northern China gained the use of bronze from the Dong Sung. Moreover, there's also a claim that it spread wet-rice cultivation south into Southeast Asia and north into Southern China. The latter doesn't matter because Java was cultivating dry-rice in 1200BC and that's when we get a definitive 'feel' for a distinct Javanese civilization.
3. In the case of Hindu-Buddhism it was almost certainly introduced by Southeast Asia elites rather than Indian missionaries as a conscious piece of power politics. Hindu-Buddhism offered to Southeast Asia monarchs a new brand of political legitimacy and sacral authority to draw upon which was far and above better for ruling than the more egalitarian rules that predominated in Southeast Asia up until that point. And before you run away with this point, it was the culture of the elite and even amongst them its hold was shallow hence the continued power of the distinctly Javanese Goddesses of the Indian Ocean and Harvest. Two deities that Javanese Muslims tend to still hold in esteem.
 
 
Looking at this thread I am over and over again remainded of what complete bung "radical diffusionism" was (and how moronic Grafton Elliot Smith was) as far as anthropological theories go.
 
I think the argument was that "civilisation" need not to have been under the influence of "cradles" in order to arise in a given location.

If you happen to agree with this, then "cradles" is indeed a misnomer, since it implies that "civilisation" cannot arise without input from certain, more advanced regions.

It's quite straightforward, actually.

:coffee:

That's more or less what I was going for, and I admitted (and Dachs pointed out) that my use of cradles was a misnomer, as it wasn't in the traditional sense. What's happening now is that I'm saying, "what's a better term?", and Masada is saying, "I don't believe you, so I'm going to continue to argue this point".

If anyone has a better term, please say what you think it should be.
 
I have seen exactly the same amount of evidence of Norte Chico being an Australian offshoot as any Sumerian influence in County Meath.
And you'd be absolutely correct in this assumption.

109176-chiko-roll.jpg
 
Back
Top Bottom