Filling in the gaps - Charting the optimal Civ Switches

[Xandinho]

Why not put Caral/Norte Chico in the ancient South America slot? It's literally the first major civilization on the continent, with plenty of unique features, and certainly very ancient. Meanwhile Nazca, Moche, Tiwanaku or Chimu can just as well go to the exploration era slot.

I'm not entirely sure if Caral is well-documented enough to be included in Civ, given the many elements this game requires. I don't know how many civs this game will have in the end, but I personally would not spend the Antiquity South American slot on Caral. I'd much rather see something like Tiwanaku, Nazca, or Moche, as I find it unlikely we would get more than one of them. That said, I'd love to have one of Caral’s pyramids as a wonder.

Chimú is a good alternative to the Incas in the region, although the Muisca are also practically screaming to be included in the game.

Edit. By the way, should people maybe start considering a Rapa Nui civ as a possibility? If they like to include famous things in this game, the Easter Island statues certainly need no introduction. Lately, I have started to think this could serve as a kind of bridge between Oceania and South American civs.

 

[Krajzen]

My general idea for South East Asia is the Antiquity/Exploration/Modern distinction is more of Precolonial/Colonial/Post Colonial

I don't like this framework because a) it makes SEA civs entirely dependent on and defined by the European factor, whereas for many SEA civs Westerners were for a long time just yet another useful foreigner and a secondary factor compared to the other things

And b) "Colonialism" means 16th century in case of Philippines and Malacca but 17-18th in case of Java, 18-19th in case of Sumatra and 19th in case of mainland SEA (with Thailand escaping it entirely to begin with) so it's not a unified and comparable phenomenon (with the 19th century colonialism being very different animal from the 16th wave)

SEA in particular has its own distinctive and indigenous "early modern" period of approx 1400-1800 as argued by many historians, beginning before Western exploration efforts, therefore there is no need to tie them to the Western actions. In mainland SEA in particular the interactions with Europeans were far from being the primary concern of that era.

 

[Krajzen]

For Exploration Philippines I would prefer the Sulu Sultanate or the Maguindanao Sultanate

My problem with those civs being the "representation" of Philippines is them not being very, well, representative of the archipelago in general - they were Islamic state exceptions of the 95% non-Islamic non-state Filipino archipelago, and to this day there are massive problems with Muslims of those areas not feeling common identity and history with the other Filipino people (hence the conflict that last to the modern day), hence they are not super convincing for me in terms of being "the missing link" between the ancient Filipino people and the modern state

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Edit. By the way, should people maybe start considering a Rapa Nui civ as a possibility? If they like to include famous things in this game, the Easter Island statues certainly need no introduction. Lately, I have started to think this could serve as a kind of bridge between Oceania and South American civs.

In Antiquity? I guess that could work. Is there enough information about them to give them two UUs and civics though?

 

[Archanist]

I don't like this framework because a) it makes SEA civs entirely dependent on and defined by the European factor, whereas for many SEA civs Westerners were for a long time just yet another useful foreigner and a secondary factor compared to the other things

And b) "Colonialism" means 16th century in case of Philippines and Malacca but 17-18th in case of Java, 18-19th in case of Sumatra and 19th in case of mainland SEA (with Thailand escaping it entirely to begin with) so it's not a unified and comparable phenomenon (with the 19th century colonialism being very different animal from the 16th wave)

SEA in particular has its own distinctive and indigenous "early modern" period of approx 1400-1800 as argued by many historians, beginning before Western exploration efforts, therefore there is no need to tie them to the Western actions. In mainland SEA in particular the interactions with Europeans were far from being the primary concern of that era.

good points, thank you for broadening my perspective

 

[Xandinho]

In Antiquity? I guess that could work. Is there enough information about them to give them two UUs and civics though?

My idea would be to place them in the Exploration Age, with the Va'a as their unique unit — a type of generic Polynesian vessel that the ancestors of the Rapa Nui people possibly used to reach Easter Island. For their civilian unit, they could have the “Moai Sculptor,” which would build the unique improvement Moai Statue (or simply Ahu, the large stone platforms on which the Moai were placed), similar in concept to Nepal’s Sherpa civilian unit.

As for their associated wonder, this could be Ahu Tongariki, the largest of all Ahus, or simply Paro, the tallest Moai ever erected. Some possible civic ideas could include the Birdman Cult, the Successive Dynasty of Ariki, and Ancestor Worship.

Rapa Nui could be connected to South America, having as its predecessor not only a Tonga civ but also something like a Nazca civ, for example.

 

[Bonyduck Campersang]

My problem with those civs being the "representation" of Philippines is them not being very, well, representative of the archipelago in general - they were Islamic state exceptions of the 95% non-Islamic non-state Filipino archipelago, and to this day there are massive problems with Muslims of those areas not feeling common identity and history with the other Filipino people (hence the conflict that last to the modern day), hence they are not super convincing for me in terms of being "the missing link" between the ancient Filipino people and the modern state

Didn't mean them as a missing link, more in the sense they were the most important native states during the time period covered by the Exploration Age period. Besides, whether the Moro or the other Filipinos like it or not, they're still part of the history of the Philippines

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Rapa Nui could be connected to South America, having as its predecessor not only a Tonga civ but also something like a Nazca civ, for example.

Ok. I thought you meant that they could be a precursor to both Hawaii and Inca, which honestly I wouldn't mind that either. It's better then what they have now.
Though I guess "bridge" would signify you mean in the middle.

 

[socratic]

Hawaii’s inclusion in Exploration makes me think we’ll get a historically loose pathway for the Polynesians. A Tonga > Hawaii > Maori path seems the most likely. Rapa Nui is definitely possible though. We know as much about them as we know about the Mississippians.

 

[j51]

Hawaii’s inclusion in Exploration makes me think we’ll get a historically loose pathway for the Polynesians. A Tonga > Hawaii > Maori path seems the most likely. Rapa Nui is definitely possible though. We know as much about them as we know about the Mississippians.

Those abandoned files someone found in the game did indicate they plan on adding Tonga and Māori.