The Dutch Empire
- Thread starter BCLG100
- Start date
sirdanilot
BBcode owns in sigs!
Nah that's not true. I learnt plenty of historyNo, we just don't learn history anymore
sydhe
King of Kongs
The Dutch got a lot of their empire from Portugal during the period when Portugal and Spain's crowns were united and the United Provinces were at war with both. They even (briefly) conquered a good portion of Brazil.
I need to defend Dutch honor a little bit. The Dutch did very well in their wars with England despite losing New York. They lost their first war and won the other two. Their problems were they were awfully close to France and their King became King of England. Plus they had a relatively small population.
I need to defend Dutch honor a little bit. The Dutch did very well in their wars with England despite losing New York. They lost their first war and won the other two. Their problems were they were awfully close to France and their King became King of England. Plus they had a relatively small population.
They had massive areas of indonesia under sway- i agree with you but im having trouble defining how it wasn't just trading posts. How did they differ for instance with British colonial rule in India? Simply that the United provinces didnt actually govern them and therefore without the governing by another country it can't really be called an empire?
Just a hunch, not checked or researched by me - The Dutch didn't send out colonists or families to those areas, at least not on a large scale. It were mainly Dutch men and local women inhabiting the "trading posts". The majority of the men went there, made their profits and returned to the Netherlands. Or at least that was their intention. Not much of a colony without colonists.
Disenfrancised
Beep Beep
They also had considerably less people than Britain, and spare fertile land at home (Great Britain and Ireland being much bigger, but full of swamps, moors and hills), so there was no great incentive to start settler colonies.
But not many families went to South America under Spanish rule, predominantly just men who then interacted with the population yet there is no argument that that was part of the Spanish empire so whats the difference? that the Spanish territories in the new world were controlled by a lieutenant directly appointed by the State whilst the Dutch 'colonies' were only controlled by VOC directors?
Swedishguy
Deity
I don't think they had Empire-Building in mind. They abandoned Brazil because the price of sugar had dropped, for example.
A "good portion" is kind of huge stretch. The dutch conquest was basically limited to a good part of the Capitania-Geral of Pernambuco (which was bigger then the modern state of Pernambuco).
But anyway, in defense of the dutch I'll say they were 100 times better then the portuguese at running that area, and it is a tremendous disgrace for the people of Pernambuco that the dutch were eventually defeated. In fact after the portuguese took over again they begun persecuting the Jews, who left in many numbers and went to North America where they founded - that's right, New York (then New Amsterdam).
They didn't fight harder for Pernambuco because of that (or rather, because they could produce sugar from the Antilles), but there was a series of military campaigns against the dutch and they lost.
Maimonides
Emperor
Sorry to get off topic, but I have to make a correction here. New Amsterdam was not founded by Jews. In fact, Jews were originally forbidden to enter the colony. While Peter Stuyvesant was governor, a boatload of Jews arrived fleeing persecution & the Inquisition in South America. Stuyvesant would not let them land & they had to sit aboard ship for months until orders from Amsterdam arrived overriding Stuyvesant & giving them permission to come ashore & settle. New Amsterdam had no Jews during it's early years.
You are correct in saying that Jews had an easier time under Dutch rule than Portuguese or Spanish. The Inquisition had no mandate in Dutch territories.
1889
Mayor of H-Marker Lake
Did the Dutch VoC intend to build an empire? I think surely their ambitions grew with their success but their understanding of economics was much different than ours (Adam smith wasn't published until 1776 right?). I think adherents to mercantilist principles felt that conquest was an economics activity. It may be a little removed from the 17-18th century but it certainly is hard to distinguish warfare from commercial activity in the late medieval period and earlier.
Yeah, even though it is considered "common knowledge" in Brazil that New York was founded by brazilian jewish refugees, that indeed seems to be wrong (as is often the case with "common knowledges").
New Amsterdam became a city in 1653, and the "brazilians" only arrived in 1654. However, from what I've recently read, they were allowed to enter the city by 1655 despite Stuyvesant's objections.
Not the case with the VOC. They really were traders not dissimilar to what we think of traders nowadays. Sure, they were also tough guys, but with the knowledge that warfare was bad for business. That "no war, just trade" attitude was the sole reason the Dutch were the only western nation allowed to trade with Japan between 1641 and 1853.
However, the Dutch West India Company, who did their busines in the America's and Africa, also had wargoals. The Dutch were still at war with Spain and Spain had some activities in the America's. Since the America's were a lot less densely populated than Asia, colonization did play a part, albeit a minor one. France's, England's, Spain's and Portugal's colonization goals were a lot stronger than the Dutch colonization goals. Trade remained a more important goal than colonization.
Luiz: New Amsterdam was founded in 1624. In 1653 it received the rights to call itself a city. Only 23 Brasilian jews arrived in 1654 and were forbidden to buy land there. However, the Jews who were already living in New Amsterdam knew their legal rights and with the aid of the Jewish community in Amsterdam (Holland) who put pressure on the Dutch government, the Brasilian jews in New Amsterdam got religious freedom. That's about it as far as Brasilian Jews and New Amsterdam are connected - at least, AFAIK.
Sorry Rik but thats not entirely true, It was Coen who stated that war could not exist without trade nor trade without war. Allthough his successors didn't take such a hard line it was an intrinsic part of their nature nor was it the sole reason they were given trading rights- majority of it was sweet talking those in charge.
Maimonides
Emperor
How interesting. I learned something new @ CFC.
I wonder how that Brazilian myth originated. I'm suprised that the average Brazilian even knows about those Jewish refugees from Recife.Rik Meleet already pointed this out, but New Amsterdam was well established when the Recife Jews showed up.
Yup. The Dutch definitely get credit for founding New York, not us Jews.
New York didn't develop the large Jewish population it has today until the opening of Ellis Island as an immigration station & the ensuing waves of Jewish immigration from Eastern Europe. When George Washington thanked the Jewish community for it's support of the Revolution, he traveled to Rhode Island to do it, not New York, Boston or Philidelphia.
I wrote a term paper in college on the early history of Jews in the Americas which is how I learned about the Recife Jews. That was several years ago so I don't remember exact dates. Jews were in Rhode Island & the Massachusetts Bay Colony long before New York. The earliest record of a Jew in the U.S.' original 13 colonies is a 16th century record of the Massachusetts Bay Colony mentioning "Simon ye Jew" being arrested for travelling on the sabbath. It's a bit ironic that Simon's sabbath was Saturday, not Sunday, the day he was being arrested for travelling on.
Back to topic, Amsterdam had a thriving Jewish community during the Age of Exploration, certainly because of it's unusual religious tolerance for Europe at that time. New Amsterdam did not because of the opposite reason.
I stand corrected. Great way to learn.
A bit further investigation I noticed the VOC even committed a Massacre of the Bandanese on the [wiki]Banda Islands[/wiki] because the Bandanese refused to comply with the VOC monopoly on nutmeg. The VOC then handed it to Dutch nutmeg planters. To prevent over-production which would make nutmeg less profitable once in a while the VOC-soldiers destroyed nutmeg plantations at random. So indeed, the VOC was a military force as well, but all in purpose of trade, not colonization.
Yeah pretty much, i read one historian (can't remember who) in that the Spain, England, Portugal etc built empires and then tried to exploit some commercial gains from it the Dutch however went for the commercial stuff and then indirectly began forming an empire.
He put it better naturally. The VOC did sort of colonise the Cape of Good Hope indirectly killing off the locals with Smallpox but as they were a multinational company, though predominantly Dutch, i dont think a company could colonise somewhere without the govrnments control and as the Hereen XVII once told the states general that they could sell their fortresses to the King of spain or any other of the United Provinces enemies they were not under the governments control.
He put it better naturally. The VOC did sort of colonise the Cape of Good Hope indirectly killing off the locals with Smallpox but as they were a multinational company, though predominantly Dutch, i dont think a company could colonise somewhere without the govrnments control and as the Hereen XVII once told the states general that they could sell their fortresses to the King of spain or any other of the United Provinces enemies they were not under the governments control.
About the Cape Colony; this really was a colony. It was used as a refresh-point for ships for vegetables, water and fruits. For that colonists were needed.
The Dutch wiki states that clearly the Cape Colony grew into a colony, despite the VOC-policy specifically forbidding colonisation at all. I knew the VOC didn't have many colonies, but I didn't know they had even forbidden colonisation. That explains a lot.
The Dutch wiki states that clearly the Cape Colony grew into a colony, despite the VOC-policy specifically forbidding colonisation at all. I knew the VOC didn't have many colonies, but I didn't know they had even forbidden colonisation. That explains a lot.
plarq
Crazy forever
In any case, Ming loyalist forces (who were fighting the invading Manchus) under Koxinga (can't remember Chinese name) kicked the Dutch off the island and made it their base...
Zheng Chenggong, and his mother is from Nagasaki. Thank you.
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