The Fate of the World Hinges on One Decision

[ripcord_tx]

It's amazing how the fate of the world can hinge on one decision.

I posted a snapshot yesterday of this game, but I'll flesh it out more. I'm Persian, it's 300ad on a huge map, and the world is peaceful. No wars, all the civilizations are involved in a mad land rush. Trading maps shows everybody is about equal, about 15 cities. I've made my last settler to snag that last spot on the southern point, using a couple of spearmen to block the English without fighting them so that I can get there first.

Each city of mine has 1 spearman in it as I've been focused on expansion. I'm not worried, with constant trading everybody is polite toward me.

The Germans call. I don't know why they're not polite anymore; they demand a tech from me. The map shows the Germans are a screen to the north on the other side of the Greeks. There doesn't appear to be any threat, so I refuse. I won't see any German, will I?

340ad. Two German warriors appear on the southwest corner by the Russian border. How the heck did they get there? I save the game at this spot just in case. As my cities finish up their libraries, I change their production over to Immortals. The German warriors hurl themselves against my spearman and die, and I start planning reinforcements.

The Germans ally themselves with the Greeks. The Greeks declare war. I start abandoning libraries to switch everybody to immortals as my whole north border is size 1 cities with a single spearmen, and I share a long boarder with the Greeks.

Three German warriors appear on my northwest border, through the Greek territory. The Greeks ally themselves with the Russians who declare war on me. Russian archers appear on the west.

I contact the other peaceful civilizations. Mutual Protection is not yet an option, and I am unsuccessful at convincing anybody else to side with me.

The Germans take their first city. The Russians from the west raze a city. The Russians ally with the Babylonians who declare war on me. The Germans have 4 archers on my border.

The Babylonians ally with the Zulu who declare war on me. Zulu allies with the Americans who declare war on me. Only the English are left, and I try again to trade techs with them or get them to ally with me. "That is not possible" and "they would never accept that deal".

I finally have a couple of immortals; I move them to the borders where I can to protect against the Russians. I use the immortals to pick off some passing archers. My second city falls to the Germans on the north; the Russians amass on the southwest. The Greeks raze a city. The English declare war on me.

German archers and spearmen take a third city. My immortals manage to take a city back from the Russians and even raze a city of theirs on the border. I start gathering up immortals to sweep up the west, to retake cities. I take back 2 more cities. I have a leader who builds an army of immortals. My army and 4 immortals repel the Germans from the northwest, retaking all the cities the Germans took from me. The English appear with swordsmen on the east and take their first city.

The Germans cut off my iron; no more immortals are possible. I put my damaged immortals in my northwest city where most of the action is. The Germans appear with 15 archers, destroy all the immortals, and retake the town. They refuse to talk to me. The English take a second city. The Greek raze another city. Greeks, Germans and English have longbowmen and swordsmen.

Attempts to broker peace fail. Only the Babylonians are reasonable, charging all my gold and world map, but like the Americans and Zulu, they haven't been real participants. The Russians, Greeks, Germans, and English each want a different city and all my gold to provide peace. I give the Germans the city they ask for, but now I don't have any gold to get additional peace. The Russians land by boat on the south and take a city. I'm trimmed down from my original 15 cities to 4 cities before I abandon the game, defeated. The year is 700ad.

But wait - I saved the game in 340ad. I reload from that point, and see the first German warriors coming over the hill. My diplomacy screen shows everybody polite except war with the Germans. All my cities are intact.

I contact the Germans who want 30 gold and my world map to declare peace. Over the next several turns, I put 3 spearmen in each city, a few wandering immortals patrolling the borders, and return to my libraries. Before ending for the night, I find I'm now in 2nd place behind the Americans. I'm ahead of the other civilizations in techs and culture and all are polite toward me. I build my first Wonder. The year is 700ad, and I'm a technically advanced, militarily powerful average sized country. The year is 700ad.

What a difference 30 gold makes.

 

[Moulton]

Happens
Almost happened to me, this game I expanded fast grabbed a chunk of land, and then started building immortals. Bab declared war, and then Aztec and China and England joined. The others had not been heard from. I had a long front, between China and BAb, ENg and AZ being far away.... but they all had ROP signed. Immortals on line saved the day. Bab cut off my iron, but I got it back in time. china cut off my Horse, but when I started marching on her, she backed off. Bought Eng and AZ off, then proceded to cut Bab down to size.

It seems that if you get ahead of them in the land race, the whole world turns against you.

I had a similar to yours a week or so ago.. and just sat back and saw my carefully build civ decline into dust. I could not fend off the aggressors, and just to make matters worse, my imported luxuries disappeared (war!) and all my cities rioted and began burning them selves down.
I had saved just before the horror show began, and next night i made one small change.... and saved the world.

 

[Civilizator]

It seems to me that that kind of things happen when you have
a big land area but a small army compared to them. Once a more
powerful civ has declared war on you the chances that others
join against you increase a lot. The key is always having a powerful army.

 

[Feinder]

I've learned much the same thing as you, in much the same way.

I play the Geeks (er, Greeks, smile). I like the Hoplite, because he's useful thru (and including) the Middle Ages. I'm not normally all that agressive militarily, I just want to protect what I have. But in my current game, I've learned alot...

Basically, the continent is a oval on it's side. I control the southern shorline with a line of cities, and another line of cities inland (about 8 or 9 total). To my east, are the Indians. To the north is Babylon. Beyond Babylon is Persia to the northwest, and England to the North East.


Persia..............England
.....Babylon.............India
.........Me (Greece)

Babylon and I have been polite neighbors, trading tech and maps occasionally. India is keeping to himself (fine with me). I got a message that Persia had declared war on Babylon -and- me. Like you, I start with a spearman (or Hoplite) in each city, but only 1. We both know that only makes the AI salivate for conquest. Persia starts beating on Babylon. While my military is quite meager, I can shift all my troops north face Persia. In the meantime, I switch to mass-producing Hoplites. Babylon is losing to Persia, but exacting a toll on the troops before they get to me, so my few defenders are able to hold the line. My reinforcements have now been produced, and not a moment to soon. Babylon's capital has just fallen to the onslaught of Persian Immortals, and they're now down to just two cities. Obviously, they're not going to be killing as many Persians before they get to me as they had been. Unfortunately the new Hoplites aren't where they're needed. Suddenly, an army of 6 English swordsmen show up on the north border, and take out two of Hoplites defending an important hill. Heck, I didn't even know I was at war with the English! With nothing to stop the English, I bought peace with maps and cash; thankfully, they left. I moved up the new Hoplites, and decided to try and help the Babs by making an alliance vs. the Persians. Figured I'd station some Hoplites around his cities to further absorb the Immortals. When I allied with the Babs, suddenly the Indians declared war (probably a pact with the Persians), and my border to India was largely undefended. I shifted a few Hoplites to "the Eastern Front", where the met the first Indian attackers. Only archers, and just a few (whew!). Hm. Nothing else coming from India. I tried to get peace, but he wanted me to pay huge sums, so I gave him the finger. While my troops were holding the line in the north, I sent two Hoplites into India to tear the place up. You can't attack anything (effectively) with a Hoplite, but I just went thru and pillaged everthing I saw. My Hoplites were able to fend off the Indian counter-attacks and a few turns later, India was set back 500 years of road building and mining. He gave me 120 gold (his entire treasury) to stop. The battle with the Persians had stalemated (altho the Babylonians had been completely wiped out), but I hadn't lost any cities, and quadrupled my military - and had the money to pay for it (due to Ghandi's generous contribution and the timely occurance of my Golden Age, and building a slew of marketplaces in all my cities with the increase production). A few turns later, Persia wanted tribute. He got the finger too, so he declared war on me again. But this time I had plenty of troops to defend with, so I actually started a massive production of horseman. Immortals are pretty well matched against my Hoplites, so things got kinda messy, but my lines held against their initial onslot (about 12 Immortals). But Hoplites are cheaper than Immortals, and I was winning the attrition war. My horsemen were soon ready, and I counterattacked, recapturing the cities of the old Babylonian Empire, and even a (very nice) size 8 city native of Persia that he had been using as a forward production center. All because I offered to help the Babylonians (who are now extinct). And if I hadn't paid off that attack from the English, I would probably have in the same boat as Babylon.

But yes, what you were decribing sounded alot like WW1 actually!

-F-

 

[Richard III]

Originally posted by Civilizator
It seems to me that that kind of things happen when you have
a big land area but a small army compared to them. Once a more powerful civ has declared war on you the chances that others join against you increase a lot. The key is always having a powerful army.

For this reason I find myself fighting more and more preventative wars; the game has created a strange balance-of-power dynamic that I would never have worried about so much in Civ2. I rush not only to attack likely aggressors as soon as I have the strength, I also rush to get allies to join me to keep them from doing the same to me.

I suppose, given that this happens between 1200AD and 1700AD, that this is to a certain degree even realistic.

R.III

 

[eyrei]

In the early going, if someone declares war on me, I bite my nails hoping noone will join in before I get a chance to go. Then, I make an alliance with my closest neighbor against my enemy. This seems to cut down on the chance of the entire world declaring war on you, since you have an ally that you may be able to drag further into it.

 

[ripcord_tx]

This was the first time I've ever been exposed to a cascading world war all against me. Quite the learning experience. 8)

One irritating thing the AI does is act like vultures - let says the English have a small peninsula, and you've decided their existence should end. After weakening their armies, it's clear they're defenseless. At this point, every other civilization declares war on the victim. They completely ignore right of passage and trample through your territory to be the first to take an English city. Asking them to leave will turn them from Gracious to Annoyed in 1 turn - that English territory is *that* important to them.

 

[eyrei]

Originally posted by ripcord_tx
This was the first time I've ever been exposed to a cascading world war all against me. Quite the learning experience. 8)

One irritating thing the AI does is act like vultures - let says the English have a small peninsula, and you've decided their existence should end. After weakening their armies, it's clear they're defenseless. At this point, every other civilization declares war on the victim. They completely ignore right of passage and trample through your territory to be the first to take an English city. Asking them to leave will turn them from Gracious to Annoyed in 1 turn - that English territory is *that* important to them.

Always remember. Territory is all important to the AI. I don't know if this is because of the way scoring works or what. It just is.

 

[Salvor]

You can pretty easily turn the tides of a cascading war if you do it quickly enough.

Had I been in your situation, the minute the Germans declared war on me (before their warriors even impaled themselves on your spearmen) I would have contacted the Greeks immediately, since they are situated between you and the Germans. I would buy a military alliance against the Germans with little regard for cost.

Then I would keep a close eye on my northern border. The Germans most likely already have a sizable assault force, and it's probably in Greece on its way towards you. Since Germany is now at war with Greece, they will most likely attack some Greek cities instead of you. So now not only are your cities safer, but there's a good likelihood you can scrounge up some territory that becomes free when the Germans take Greek cities. So you can extend your border northward without having to fight the Greeks, but instead having them do your fighting for you. There's also a good likelihood that the Greeks will use diplomatic efforts to bring the Russians or others into the war on your side. If they don't you can as well, but it's better if they do since that won't cost you anything and you're only committed to the one alliance that ends after 20 turns.

Just be sure to send garrisons with your settlers, and don't make a peace treaty with the Germans for at least 20 turns, unless the Greeks do first.

 

[Sodak]

Cool stories!

Stuff like this is simply unthinkable in CivII, as great as that game is. I love how the AI will mass troops and throw its weight around. The balance of power works fairly well.

ripcord_tx, it sounds like the AI is doing exactly what the player would do! He just clicks the "kiss my ass" button in answer to your request to remove his troops.

 

[ripcord_tx]

I'm sure I contacted the Greeks right away - with Germans trampling through their territory, it's the smart thing to do. I can't recall the response - either I didn't have enough gold to give them, or I decided whatever they wanted was too expensive. These civilizations were typically demanding a city from me to do my bidding, and I almost always consider that too expensive.

I'm more careful now when somebody demands something now. The Babylonians called up after this and demanded a tech. The military advisor said we were about equal and they feared my Immortal. After careful considereration, I said no, and the Babs said "oops, never mind". But I gave it a lot of careful thought, remembering how my civilization crumbled when I turned down a demand.

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by ripcord_tx
One irritating thing the AI does is act like vultures

But it is a legitimate strategy. In a recent game, the other powers had ganged up on the Aztecs. My only serious rival, the Persians, was acting like a vulture and globbling cities. Of course, like a vulture, I joined in for a snack of my own.

If I hadn't entered the war, then the Persians would have been able to consolidate their position and been a threat to my future plans.

 

[ripcord_tx]

I wonder.... if they're trampling through your territory anyway, I wonder if you can sell Roght of Passage to them for a decent wad of cash?

 

[Cantankerous]

I think the AI acts a little more like sharks in a frenzy. (OK, semantics here.)

But it never fails in my games (Regent level) with 15 or 16 civs that around the late middle ages, the sharks start to swim.

Most, if not all, civs make through the middle of Middle Ages, but then seemingly without fail one civ declares war on another. Then within 5 or 6 turns, virtually the whole world is at war against that one weaker civ. Rinse, and repeat. Soon there are maybe 10 civs left for the modern age. The trick is making sure you're one of the civs that make into modern times.

If the AI thinks you're weak, they WILL declare war. And they will bring friends to the party.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

I have seen the vulture thing, but I have also seen it go differently. One of my early games (while still on Warlord, learning ), I was playing with 12 civs on a large continent map. Amazingly, all 12 civs made it into the industrial era with a fairly decent base. There had been several border skirmishes, but no really nasty wars.

Some of the militaristic civs started to get really demanding (and apparently not just with me), because in less than 5 turns, there were mutual protection pacts signed all over the place. Every civ had a least 2, and they weren't divided into any clear camps.

To make a long story short, I ended my turn and the Romans attacked one of my allies, pulling me and another civ into the war. On the other civ's turn, he counterattacked the Romans, pulling the Roman's allies into a war with him, (but not yet me). By the time my turn game around again, everyone was at war. And there were three camps, each at war with the other two! Talk about a free-for-all.

The only thing bad about it was that after the war settled down, the rest of the game was dull as dishwater by comparison.

CJ

 

[Magnus]

This is why embassies are so important.

1. with an embassy you can create alliances and Rights of Passage

2. with an embassy you can see if your enemies have Rights of Passages with neighbors - showing you who is 'buddy-buddy' with who - this tends to be a tip-off to what civs will be allying with each other shortly. Rights of passage are HUGE for successful pursuit of war - I prefer them to alliances. and I try to get them with everybody.

tip - sometimes if you feel an invasion is iminent, shift most of your forces to the theatre, sometimes all that activity will make an enemy civ think twice about rolling over your borders.

 

[ChickinSht]

Rough stuff. If there's one thing I've learned it's to never get into a war alone. Once war is declared, within the next 10 turns most every civ has declared war on someone else, almost always the weaker element. If you're at war with someone, and you're the weaker civ, GET HELP FAST!! Don't bother with the cost. The more powerful the civ, the better, but I've found just having another civ on my side helps a lot in deterring everyone else from declaring war. What's especially funny is if you ally with the weakest civ in the game. Then, everyone declares war on them and you get to watch the greatest nations in the world pick apart a pissant country with absolutely nothing of value.

 

[Moulton]

England came to my aid early in this game (for a price, or course) and I could not have done it without her. However, as I got strong enough I did better without the assistance and sharing of spoils with the others.

Funny thing... I had an MPP with France, and ROP. France declared war on russia, and I was drawn. I was getting ready to attack, anyway. If I had not had France fighting and taking cities, I would have won the domination game at or before the end of that conquest.

 

[LeroyJr]

One great thing about this game is that there is no real golden rules when it comes to wars. Each and every game you play has different circumstances that dictate your decisions.

I think the problem with the original guys post was that he was the Persians. Man it seems like everyone hates the Persians wether they are AI controlled or human. When I play them I get attacked by everyone as well regardless of my military strength.

Getting alliances from your neighbors is a good thing in a war, if you can get them. I call up and often get the "Not Possible" thing because they would lose their wine trade or something if they declared war. Sometimes it is also not advisable to drag your neighbors into a war. In one war I was fighting the #2 dog in Egypt and the #3 in the Zulu's at the same time. The Iroquios in #6 buffered me from the Zulu's and the French in #7 buffered me from the Egyptians. (I was Persia). Dragging either the Iroquios or the French into the war would have meant they got crushed by the Zulu's and Egyptians and therefore strengthened my two greatest rivals and iliminated the bufferzone between myself and the other two powers of the game.

 

[simon.hurst]

The question is, Is it worth giving in to the AI demands to avoid a war? I'm pretty stuborn in that it really bugs me to give them something for nothing but the war can really screw you as well. If i do give in to someone it is then my mission for the rest of the game to totally and utterly f**k their empire regardless of all other objectives. Perhaps I'd win more if i was less stubborn but what the hell!