The Fear promotion not acting as expected

[Immaculate]

I had a stack of three drowns. They were composed of the toughest (with combat V, shock II, march, and fear), and two that were recently drowned (i drown them once they get march) (combat III, march). I moved them up to an enemy city, thinking that i didn't have to worry about the counter-attack as fear would prevent my stack from being attacked by the enemy's (relatively) huge stack of warriors. I was wrong, the enemy stack attacked my drowns. I am unsure if the fear-promoted drown ever defended or not (he was not wounded if he did).

Did i misunderstand fear? Is dragon-fear/ hyborem fear different from the undead/demon fear promo?

When i attack the dragon, i can attack with assassins and strike at the warriors, axemen, workers in the city with him, but once they are depleted, my assassins refuse to attack because they are too afraid. Also, if i attack with most other troops, i simply can't attack because my forces are too afraid.

Why/how was the enemy warrior stack able to attack my drowns. I thought that my tough drown, because of his superior shock and combat promotions, would be first defender and thus my stack would be un-attackable without courage (or fear-immunity).

Please help

(oh yeah, playing .32l)

 

[Blackmantle]

Fear gives a high chance! of not beeing attacked (if said drown is the defender in question. It doesn't protect the non-fear ones... That its unharmed might suggest something else did defend). Its not immunity. Combat-odds also matter to a certain degree (i belive strength as well. Could be wrong on that one though...). Acheron usually has really high odds + usually takes multiple fights to wear down. So its a bad idea to try to take him down without courage / fear-immunity. Same about hyborem. Not all so much on weaker things.

That its 'just' a chance is easily visible if playing spectre-summoning sheaim vs. Deity AI Hippus or the likes. To reliably defend against a 20+ Stack you'll need about 3 Spectres. Since if one gets wounded in a fight its odds dwindle so its get taken out fast if it gets an unlucky draw, spelling doom for the rest of the stack...

 

[Kael]

To add there is no difference between dragon fear and fear from others (its just the existence of the fear promotion or not). I believe it does take the relative strength of the two units into account, but i dont have the code in front of me right now. A warrior will almost always be afraid of Acheron, an immortal will almost never be afraid of a feared worker.

 

[Ahriman]

I would really appreciate if we could get the exact details for Fear.

The fear promotion is copied into the Warhammer mod, where it is a much bigger deal because there are many more units with fear; in particular, several factions have a buildable strength ~18 dragon with fear and Dark elves have powerful knights with fear, among others.

 

[Fafnir13]

While we're at it, could we dole out some fear immunity? Having a high level vampire even have the chance to be too scared to attack a weakened wraith is...odd...

 

[Pyr0mancer]

That's the whole point of Courage, Fafnir13. It's a level 1 spell, Spirit, that negates fear and provides a small heal rate bonus too.

 

[Immaculate]

To add there is no difference between dragon fear and fear from others (its just the existence of the fear promotion or not). I believe it does take the relative strength of the two units into account, but i dont have the code in front of me right now. A warrior will almost always be afraid of Acheron, an immortal will almost never be afraid of a feared worker.

Is this based on 'base' strength or stength with promotions?
Does metal weapons contribute?

I.

 

[Sarisin]

That's the whole point of Courage, Fafnir13. It's a level 1 spell, Spirit, that negates fear and provides a small heal rate bonus too.

Yes, but what do you do in the case of units that cannot receive Courage?

I've mentioned before that Werewolves, The Three Stooges, and other animals cannot get Courage and cannot attack even low-level units with Fear.

And, there doesn't seem to be a linkage between strong experienced units being able to overcome Fear. I mentioned in a prior post that I've had Greater Werewolves with plenty of XP, the Baron himself, and even heroes (without Courage) not be able to attack.

I can see the reason for Fear blocking the low-level attackers without Courage, but not very experienced units or heroes. Animals not getting Courage is something you just have to work around, I've been told.

 

[Blackmantle]

Well, Courage not beeing available to some living units (all non-living units are immune by default?) seems very much like a glitch and should be considered for a change if thats doable without to much fuss. (If it whould make to much fuss, at least the werewolves and giants should perhaps be made fear-immune.)

So the best answer if possible whould be to make them egliable for courage imo.

To the rest: Well even the strongest most battle-hardened guys can pee their pants if the situation is right i reckon (without altered state of mind by training or magic.). And those Dragons sure look like having a foul gut wrenching odor . Few thigs suck so much as a hefty fit of overpowering panic / nausea .

 

[Fafnir13]

Angels, Demons, Golems, and Undead are immune to fear. Makes sense. As mentioned above, werewolves ought to be added to the list. I'd also say that vampires, heroes, anything with the enraged promotion, Dragons, and perhaps even units of a certain level (10 and above?) should be immune to fear. Does this reduce the usefulness of fear? Not really. It still keeps the local rabble in check, preventing the fear promoted unit from being worn down by weaker units so that the more powerful ones can gain a 99.9% chance to kill.

In my current game, I'm besieging Dis. I've killed Hyborem once using Brigit, but now's he's just being a jerk. My vamps could all easily dispatch Hyborem (odds ranging 88% to 99.9%), but all ten of them and Valin Phanual are too afraid to attack. I've saved and loaded a couple times just to see if this is consistent (I keep the random seed on reload checked too, if that matters). If it does take relative strength into account, as Kael mentioned, then it must be either taking the base strength (unmodified by damage and promotions) or it's not working right. I've never actually seen a unit without fear immunity attack a fear promoted unit.

Side Note: still took out the city, thanks to an endless horde of skeletons. Seems rather anti-climactic though. All the heroes and powerful units huddling in their tents, whimpering in fear the big, world eating demon gets taking out by their weakest summons.

 

[kumquatelvis]

Enraged should definitely overcome fear. Isn't that a berserker's whole shtick?

 

[Keeper_GFA]

I'd say crazed should be fear immune, but not necessarily enraged. Just because you're really angry doesn't mean you can't be scared.

Maybe fear should just give a high % to 'repel' attackers. That way an attacker can play the numbers using more troops to ensure that someone will attack. The promotion is still useful, however, as most troops will not be able to attack.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I think that Fear should basically be changed into a morale mechanic. In general, there should be a chance that a unit would be unwilling to fight against opponents, a chance based on their relative strengths, amount of damage, xp/levels, and promotions. Promotions like Demon, Angel, Elemental, Nightmare, Stigmata, , and Dragon would increase the chance that rivals would be afraid to attack (to different degrees), and those plus Courage, Morale, Enraged, Burning Blood, Valor, and the Drill promotions should make a unit less likely to succumb to fear. Promotions like Withered and Crazed would make a unit more vulnerable to fear. (I think of Enraged as Anger expressing itself though a careless violence, while Crazed as severely mentally disturbed, which would include being angry but too terrified to do anything.)

 

[Zechnophobe]

Enraged should definitely overcome fear. Isn't that a berserker's whole shtick?

Good call there mate. That would make Lunatic's Look a little better.

I'd really *really* like, however, for Fear to be a % thing, instead of an absolute thing. Chance to be afraid of the target would be = the odds of losing one combat round against the target. This would mean it would scale (Acheron would still be scarey as heck) but allow for 'fear' units that are only 3 or 4 strength base. Wouldn't Drown be cool as Strength 4 units that could get Fear off Combat 2, but not be broken strong once they did?