The first 10 turns.

killercane said:
Contructive criticism on your savegame:

-I cant remember your capital's layout, but I dont think it had a food bonus. Therefore for early worker moves I would mine, and then road the bonus grasses surrounding Entremont in the early going.

That's a lot of good info there that will likely help me out a lot.

This brings up a question though that I've been wondering about. Is it better to move to a square and mine/irrigate it first then build the road on that square or build the road first? What's the difference? I've seen that in many posts and articles and don't get why that is such a big deal but the concept is everywhere.

Thanks.
 
RevenantOne if you read my next to last paragrah in the 9:33 post you will see it is right on the head. Your empire is way too far apart, only half of it has any improvements.

You have not even met 4 of the civs at 750ad. So you do not even know if you have more than most AI's. You have a river that is about as long as I can recall with no city on it till near its end. You have town 4 one tile from a lake, it could have been a city instead of a town and on it goes.

Lux slider is 30% and could be at 20%. In fact if you had gotten Currency, you could have some markets and set it to 10 or 0. You have 4 lux.

You cannot make any trades for gpt or lux as your rep it shot. I offered 5gpt for 10 gold and it said not a chance. Only one embassy. You had ivory and did not get SoZ. At Monarch that should be a snap and then it is game over with your UU and AC. I just crush the AI.

Starting at a level the is above the norm is a fine notion, but in a complex game like C3C you need to have some guidance to learn all the ins and outs.

This needs to be done with contact with other players or the progress is very slow. You can surely figure out how to win at Monarch by pure brute force, but understand that it will not be optimal. Beyond Emperor, I am not sure if it can be done with no input from others.

Now I have to ask what did you do with the 10 leaders? Where they SGL's and MGL's? I see no wonders nor any armies? Those by turn 80 one by turn 6? Is this some mod? Is it AP?
 
RevenantOne said:
This brings up a question though that I've been wondering about. Is it better to move to a square and mine/irrigate it first then build the road on that square or build the road first? What's the difference? I've seen that in many posts and articles and don't get why that is such a big deal but the concept is everywhere.

Thanks.

It is a function of your needs and goals. Irrigate and then road is best done for food bonus such as cow/wheat. It gets the growth jump started.

Mining and then road, or road and then mine. Well road is for commerce, mine is for shields, which do you need most at that time? Shields are usually more important. Frankly it will not break the game at monarch. The bigger issue is to not waste worker turns and to not over do food. IOW irrigate all grass is not a good plan, minning moutains at the start is not a good use of worker turns.
 
Unfortuantely, I don't know what you are talking about. I never got any leaders. How do you that I had any? Do you see them somewhere?
 
Ok that may be a bug in Viewer. It is a new version. I will report it. I see it is not an AP game.
 
Vmxa delved into some good details there. How did your rep get shot? I remember in my first games I would march my guys into enemy territory, open up the advisor window, and tell them I was declaring war. It took me forever to figure out that this hurt my reputation as they treated it like an ROP rape.

A curragh when you discover alphabet is the best scout that a non-expansionist civ can build. Use it to brave the ocean that the AI refuses to tread for the contact with the other continent. Once you are lucky enough to get one across, you can enjoy a great trade advantage.
 
killercane said:
Vmxa delved into some good details there. How did your rep get shot? I remember in my first games I would march my guys into enemy territory, open up the advisor window, and tell them I was declaring war. It took me forever to figure out that this hurt my reputation as they treated it like an ROP rape.

A curragh when you discover alphabet is the best scout that a non-expansionist civ can build. Use it to brave the ocean that the AI refuses to tread for the contact with the other continent. Once you are lucky enough to get one across, you can enjoy a great trade advantage.

Very early on the russians landed on my beach to the north and established a city right next to a square that had a settler of mine on...they didn't have a warrior with the settler so my warrior with mine took the city, we razed it. and i settled the spot. so the russians got mad at me. then I took on the civ to the north as their warriors started wandering in my territory and wouldn't leave so made some advances there and they didn't like me anymore either.

And I want to thank VMXA for that very insightful information. I think the next game I play is going to be a whole lot different.
 
I did not even look at the cities to see what the improvements look like or what the pop was doing. I would bet money that food is being wasted in several, many have pop working unimproved tiles. I just took it for granted and did not check.

RevenantOne I am not trying to be mean so please know I am only wanting to help you get better to what ever extent I can.

So you can look in the city view from F1 and scroll down all cities (only 9?) you will see each citizen. It will be working or a specialist. If it is working it will be represented by food or shields or commerce or a combination of all on the map.

If you see a tile being worked that has no commerce, it does not have a road and hence is not improved. If you see it does not have a mine/irrigation and does not have a road it is unimproved. This means you are not getting full value out of the pop.

Most likely you do not have enough workers. Or at least they are not doing the proper task. It is best to get all core cities tiles that are worked fully improved. This mean a road and either a mine or irrigated.

You have to watch out for the gov moving pop to a less than optimal tile. It may put one on a mountain tile with gold to get commerce, while you are not growing fast enough or getting enough shields for those builds.

At monarch you can flat out crush the AI by just managing your workers and pop with any reasonable start and expansion. A bit of laziness is not fatal at this level, if you have a handle on the rest of the game. Trading well, not great, just well. Getting contacts and researching tech in some reasonable order.
 
RevenantOne said:
Very early on the russians landed on my beach to the north and established a city right next to a square that had a settler of mine on...they didn't have a warrior with the settler so my warrior with mine took the city, we razed it. and i settled the spot. so the russians got mad at me. then I took on the civ to the north as their warriors started wandering in my territory and wouldn't leave so made some advances there and they didn't like me anymore either.

That should cause them to be furious with you, but does not hurt your rep.
You rep is mainly damaged by breaking deals. So if you made a deal and broke it either on purpose or by accident, that causes a hit to your rep.

If you had a deal with say Korea and then attack that town and the only trade route to Korea was through Russia, you lost the access. That breaks the deal and now your rep is shot with Korea. They will soon tell others of your nefariousness and your rep will be shot will all the civs.
 
vmxa said:
RevenantOne I am not trying to be mean so please know I am only wanting to help you get better to what ever extent I can.

Oh, no, I put myself out here for the grinder because I know that I stink at the game and thought there was some very basic concepts that I was missing. I've actually played this game for years now but didn't really get into it seriously until I started working 3rd shift and have a job with a lot of free time. Now I have this huge appreciation for the game and want to learn all the nuances of the game to become a challange in the multiplayer arena, like many of you. As far as I'm concerned the more constructive critisicm I get the better. Thanks for everything here.
 
Ok R1 you're starting to get the idea.
Basically you do well by paying attention to what is going on:

Grow fast in the early game.

Position new cities carefully. For example placing a city by a river means that you can grow past 6 without needing Construction to build an Aqueduct.

Build lots of workers (I like 1 per city) and use them well - build roads to connect every city into your economy, build them in good squares and build mines or irrigation in those squares. As far as irrigation/mining goes, a city with 2 or 3 irrigated grassland squares will grow nice and fast, so once you have those set up concentrate on shields. Make sure your populace is working the squares you improve or you are losing out.

Make good research choices, the AI civs tend to go for techs in a certain order, you've probably figured that by now. When you get a new tech try to trade it with everyone for as much as you can get.

Use your treasury wisely, making gold is the least important aspect of your economy, what you want is science and lots of it, and only as much luxuries as you need to keep your cities calm.

Build the right improvements: Temples are important to expand city radius', which lets you work more squares, expand your borders and prevent cultural conversion. Any city more than half a dozen squares away from yor capital will need a Courthouse or you lose a lot of productivity. Granaries let you grow faster (The Pyramids is a very helpful wonder if you can get it). The benefit of Libraries and Marketplaces is obvious but don't build them until you need to, they cost money to maintain and you could be growing faster instead. Barracks? 1 or 2 can easily churn out enough units to keep your empire safe. when you can build Aqueducts do so, they make your cities bigger and safer, and help your economy grow.

The key is 'micromanagement' - watch every square you use, use every unit of population wisely, build only what you really need, and make sure you trade with the other civs.
 
brennan said:
As far as irrigation/mining goes, a city with 2 or 3 irrigated grassland squares will grow nice and fast, so once you have those set up concentrate on shields. Make sure your populace is working the squares you improve or you are losing out.

I disagree with this, in despositm irrigating grassland wont have any effect because of the penalty you have when your in that gov. I would rather mine the grasslands to get more shields.
 
Tukker said:
I disagree with this, in despositm irrigating grassland wont have any effect because of the penalty you have when your in that gov. I would rather mine the grasslands to get more shields.
Irrigate plains first, unless its a bonus grassland. They produce the same amount of food/shield/gold, but irrigate takes fewer turns than mine.

In general, my order of preference is:
- Irrigate bonus tiles until I reach min(max theoretical food, 5 food/turn).
- Mine other bonus tiles.
- Mine bonus grassland.
- Irrigate plains.
- Mine regular grassland.
- All other mining, irrigation, or clearing work.

For tie breaking I use (in order):
- Choose tiles reachable by workers in one turn.
- Choose tiles that are on the connect path to other cities.
- Choose river tiles.

And of course, never leave a tile without roading it. There are exceptions to the above depending on overall strategy, tactical decisions, etc. But in general this is what I do in the early game.
 
Clarification: I don't irrigate the grassland until just before it will give the bonus, just build roads through it for trade and go back later - usually around the time I get Republic - to do the irrigation. Early In a despotism though, you still want to be working squares with lots of food, growth is king. Mining bonus grassland and irrigating Plains is a good bet right at the start.
 
Brain that is a good guide and can be simply stated as mine green, water brown in despotism.

Then you can go on to the nuances. Some very special cases where you may have 3 bonus cows and want to mine one to allow towns to share for max production/growth.

I even come back around to mine a cow once I get to size 12 and have excess food and that city is not going to make settlers.
 
I just wanted to say that with all help last night had my first win on Monarch. It was cultural victory but at this point I'll take anything. My opening game has improved so much that I'm finding myself with far more options available to me in the end game. I know life isn't supposed to be all about winning but it certainly is more fun than loosing all the time.

Thanks everyone. Please feel free to keep giving ideas and thank you all!
 
:clap: :beer:

Congratulations!

Renata
 
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