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The Germans

Discussion in 'Civ3 Strategy Articles' started by Ision, Mar 28, 2004.

  1. planetfall

    planetfall Chieftain

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    Wait, these are panzers. You don't have vet panzers vs vet inf, you have elite panzers vs vet inf. Elite panzer vs fort vet inf on hill wins 33%.

    Panzer 1 HP 5 vs Inf HP 4.
    1/3 times wins.
    1/X knocks inf to HP2

    Panzer 2 HP 5 vs Inf HP 2. Panzer wins 70% of time. So it's roughly 2 panzers to 1 infantry.

    Normal play will see stack of 8 panzers vs 4 infantry. One of two scenarios will happen. In first, you will lose 1 panzer and win city. In second, you will lose one panzer and AI will lost 2 infantry. Your other panzers will be yellowed or red lined and you will need to fall back and heal one time before continuing.

    If all you are facing is infantry, the panzers will take out 5..15 infantry per turn. Few if any civs can withstand that force. The problem with panzers is they have poor defense and radar artillery are not available or mechs are not available to keep up with them. If you slow panzers down to rate of artillery, you negate the major advantage of the panzer.

    These are panzers and not MA, so you always have to think about 1] finding a safe place to end a turn, and 2] target tanks/MA first as they have the greatest threat to your forces.

    Once a volume of mechs and MA come into play, your panzers are mostly finished but they can still do effective damage. The key is to ramp up production quickly so you can beat AI before MA's arrive on the scene.

    PF
     
  2. yoshi74

    yoshi74 Tourist from Mars

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    @planetfall

    Yes, your right that elite panzers come quite fast (and in numbers). Also i didn't took into account that you often face reg and even conscipt inf instead of only vet ones. Maybe i should give the germans a try in my next game :)

    And the abilty to build several panzer armies ...
     
  3. planetfall

    planetfall Chieftain

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    With blitz only new untested units are vets. First turn with unit:
    1] attack as vet, 2] wait for weaker unit, attack again and become elite, 3] move to safer tile for next turn.

    Yoshi74, what level are you playing at?

    PF
     
  4. yoshi74

    yoshi74 Tourist from Mars

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    Currently emporer.

    Havent played the germans since vanilla (and warlord level i think) ;)
     
  5. Siegmund

    Siegmund Chieftain

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    I agree the Germans are an underrated civ. Of course, I happen to like that alternate-phases-of-building-and-war style that suits them, too.

    Let me add just one more thing to their list of strengths.... especially if you are on a map with quite a bit of water, those half-price HARBORS are the most valuable thing that militaristic trait gives you. That tiny little island off your coast really IS worth settling if you can make it into a useful city twice as fast as any of your neighbors can. Also makes it more profitable to settle the tundra coastline of your continent - very useful for good population growth!
     
  6. planetfall

    planetfall Chieftain

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    Lost a long reply, rebuilding. Let me know what you think after I post it.
     
  7. SesnOfWthr

    SesnOfWthr True Believer

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    OK, maybe I'm in over my head in this dicussion but here goes anyhow.

    I think the greatest asset of the Panzer has only been hinted at, not clearly stated. That asset would be leader farming. As PF mentioned, the blitz ability lets you promote a panzer very easily. IMHO, the panzer is then at its best. All or most of your units will be promoted to elite very quickly, which then gives you that many more chances at a leader. The trick is to not attack cities with them, but constantly go after the stragglers out in the open. Obviously this type of tactic is more valuable in Vanilla, where the leaders are more powerful, but the increased strength of armies makes it very viable for Conquests as well. I mean, isn't it great to have 6 -10 empty armies sitting around for when you do get MI/MA? Not to mention that I'd like to see even two or three infantry stand up to a panzer army.

    Might not be even worth a penny, but there it is anyways.
     
  8. scoutsout

    scoutsout Minstrel Boy

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    A good point on the promotion/leader feature of the Panzer. I'm not sure I'd go as far as to call it the Panzer's greatest asset, but it's still a point well taken.

    Some following this may not know that if a unit wins two combats in a single turn it is almost always promoted. (I think this may be a hard-coded "rule" in the game...) Since Panzers can attack twice in one turn, a veteran panzer that survives its first combat with 3 hit points remaining has a good chance of winning a second combat and becoming elite... and later generating a leader.

    Of course, by this stage in the game Germany should have built the Heroic Epic... which, combined with the militaristic trait, should produce a fair number of Great Leaders...
     
  9. planetfall

    planetfall Chieftain

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    [ this guide is broken into Eras for easier discussion ]

    Quick Start Guide - Ideas on how to play Germany


    In as much as some have difficulty playing Germany and then give up on this civ out of frustration and in as much as playing skills increase for all civs when players master the skill of playing a slower blossoming civ, here is a quick start guide on how to play this civ.

    OVERVIEW
    The Unique Unit [UU] of panzer pops out late from the technology tree. Your strengths are science and military. Note carefully that is science and then military. You must focus on science and not military to have a wonderful game.
    Because you have a late blooming civ, the skills you learn here will help you wonderfully other games. Since most people who play Germany play for military angle instead of science, this guide will give you ideas on how to play Germany up to and including the Emperor level. Since I usually play Germany, it is amazing to see how much easier it is to play some of the other civs. Unfortunately it is not as challenging nor rewarding.

    A quick word on difficulty levels and Germany. If you start winning before you can produce panzers, you need to move up a difficulty level. If you need panzers to win, there is still room to improve your play. IF you use panzers but not as a crutch, you are about ready to move up a difficulty level.

    Game expectations: Your UU is late. To make matter worst, your Golden Age is usually later also. You will need to develop the skills to survive the first two eras so you can proceed with your conquest win. It is unrealistic to expect to win with Germany in the Ancient Era. The AI plays Germany poorly, very poorly. It usually focuses on early military action and neglects infrastructure so Germany gets a reputation as a paper bully.

    Ok, let's get started...
     
  10. planetfall

    planetfall Chieftain

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    b]Ancient Era[/]
    Overview-- How the AI wrongly plays the Germans is to build a ton of archers, few roads, and go on the war path. Wrong, rarely works. Well, actually it might work somewhat at first or second difficulty level, but who plays at those levels for long? Your goal during this era is to grab territory and resources and plan for a good productive empire.

    Techs-- You start out with Warrior code so you can build archers, but beware of the military rat hole in this era. You want science first and military second.
    Your key techs during this era are: pottery, literature, republic and currency.
    Even though you are scientific, you don't research all techs, you just need to start with pottery.

    Wonders-- Pyramids, Great Lighthouse. Phew, they are junk. You can't afford to waste time getting these wonders. [You will get them later, don't worry. But rarely in the ancient era.] Colossus is nice, but not necessary. Great Library is the only one worth any value. You only need the Hanging Gardens if you have no luxuries at all.

    Strategy-- You need to get pottery in almost all games as you need settler factories and worker factories. Rather than leaving farming to chance, the granary allows you to place these factories at your best position rather than just taking the luck of the world map. Your primary goal is to grab land. Your second goal is to grab resources. You want both iron and horses and hopefully 2..4 luxuries. You want your score to be in the middle of the pack and you don't want long wars. You might fight short skirmishes vs other scientific or expansive civs just to slow them down, but you can't afford the time to eliminate them. You need lots of workers and lots of cities. Don't be afraid to fill your empire with temporary forts after the free expansion has stopped.
     
  11. planetfall

    planetfall Chieftain

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    Middle Age Era
    Overview-- Did you hate the slow Ancient Era? Well, more of the same for Middle ages. This is a key era for Germany. How well you develop your empire and infrastructure will determine how many panzers you will be able to play with in a bit. After all, what good does it do to have the monopoly on panzers when you can only afford to build them every 8 turns? That is simply not a fast enough build rate to be a successful conqueror.

    Techs-- Three are garbage. You don't want them, don't need them and rarely can use them as Germany. The garbage techs are: Printing Press, Democracy, and Free Artistry. Now my mother taught me not to turn down free gifts, and if someone wants to give me one of these garbage techs, I won't refuse them. But I can't afford to spend time or energy on them. Two are gems. Astronomy and Gravity are key techs you want to get to first. Figure out what you need to do to get there first. Never trade these techs until you have completed building their Great Wonders.

    Wonders-- Art of War, Leonards. Dream on. If you get these, you are playing at tooooo low a difficulty level. You might get Leonards later in time for some value, but Art of War is always a lost cause. Get over the *****y. That's just the way it is with Germany. Ok, why? Remember science? You need to build a great science city and put Coperinus and Newton in it. Your science city will give you over 100 beakers which will be priceless in later game, but you have to plan and build it. Usually I need either Sistine or Bach's for happiness problems. If a close neighbor is building these, I don't have to. I don't turn down Smiths or Magellan, but it is not a show stopper if I don't get these techs. Why, they aren't science remember. I need Coperinus and Newton.

    Strategy-- Goal during this era is building the foundation or infrastructure for the great German empire. Empires cost lots of money and need good scientific foundations in order to stand the test of time. You can expect to be somewhere in the middle, even low in the list of civs at the start of this era. Who cares? Your goal is 1]survive, 2] build foundation for the Fourth Reich. Surely you can do a much better job than that old painter, what's his name anyway? something like mud. Since your primary goal is science and not military, you usually delay military tradition until you are in next era.
     
  12. planetfall

    planetfall Chieftain

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    Industrial Era
    Overview-- What's the first thing you notice here? Finally the beloved/hated panzer icon. Settle down, stop drolling. You've got to pay for them first. Now we can finally start having fun. There are 4 phases to this era:
    Phase 1__ staying alive
    Phase 2__ ramping up production
    Phase 3__ preparing for war
    Phase 4__ liebenraum

    Techs-- Junk tech: espionage. Why, who cares what they have? My factories will just have to produce more. Almost junk: sanitation. Why? only value is if need to trade to AI as they will give a lot for it. But usually you don't have happiness credits to spare. Only needed if science city will show a great boast by growing above 12. Size for defense, don't need it, Panzers are not known for defense value. Key techs are: replaceable parts and refining. Replaceable parts for 1] artillery, 2] civil engineers, and 3] infantry. Refining so you know where oil is. You won't need fast workers because your RR's are already build, right!!! You need artillery because you are playing at the right difficulty level and are weak and some civs are encroaching. You need infantry to follow your panzers on their victorious adventure.

    Wonders-- Most important is Hoover. Don't make the noobie error and beeline for Sci Method and Theory of Evol and Hoover. Don't trade medicine. Oh you can buy it, but don't sell it. You want to delay, delay others getting sci method.

    Strategy-- Ok, this is the most exciting period of the game for Germany. At the beginning of this era your are in full builder mode and by the end of the era you are in full warmonger mode.

    Phase 1__ No warfare unless others are dogpiling on some other poor civ and you want one key city. Even then, I would wait. Almost, but not yet is your theme song. Your key goal for this stage is to have at least 20..30 artillery, at least 12 infantry, and a RR'ed empire. If a bully comes along and blusters, don't get trapped. Not yet. Here take this tech/luxury and go bug someone else. I'm busy working here. Milestone-- 20 artillery units. If you still don't have military tradition, trade for it. Create an army, fight until you have a victory with the army and sue for peace. You want to start building empty armies so you have some packs available for the panzers.

    Phase 2__ Still no warfare. You want Hoover. No you lust for Hoover. But you are also smart. You don't do the noobie beeline for Hoover. It's actually faster to build a factory and coal plant in the city for Hoover, rather than even trying to prebuild Hoover from industrial era. Milestone-- Hoover.

    Phase 3__ Almost there, you surely can wait a few more turns for a faster conquest. Now you get Refining so you can see where oil's at. There is no synthetic oil, so you need to locate this resource and start war planning. Once you have located oil and reviewed the power graph, then you ask: Do I need Mutual Protection Paks? Do I have a corruption problem? Do I need a govt without War Weariness? If the answer to these is yes, and it usually will be. then get nationalism and communism. Milestone-- have Refining and started on Steel.

    Phase 4__ Careful here, the first time you play Germany you may expect to get to Motorized Transportation with no change in AI behavior. Dream on. Dream on. It may be during research of combustion, or it may be during the research of Mass Production, but at least one AI WILL declare war BEFORE you have a single lonely panzer. Plan for the AI attack, get your MPP in place before they dogpile on you. Soon it won't matter. Usually it is easy to get AI's to dogpile on your favorite AI to hate: one of the top 3.

    Once get panzers remember:
    1__ upgrade them to elite as soon as possible
    2__ don't hide them all in armies, you need Great Leaders
    3__ they are not lone wolves, they love to run in packs.
    4__ target all Tanks and horrer of horrers, MA's within range,
    5__ retreat to safety before end turn.
     
  13. planetfall

    planetfall Chieftain

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    Modern Era[/]
    Overview-- You want to have a mature army of over a hundred panzers
    gobbling up land like a free lunch. Your goal is to win before ICBM's
    and tons of MA come on line. By the middle of this era you should have
    at least 10 panzer armies.

    Techs-- Computers, computers, comptures. You need the speed of the Mechs to keep up with your glorious panzers and you need their defense to protect the weak defense of the panzers.

    Wonders-- Only important one is SDI, and hopefully you have won before then.

    Strategy-- If you can't win quickly, you may have to settle for a stalemate. Your panzers are no match for MA. If you played the game well, you will be in good shape. Worst situation, you will have upgraded all your panzers and will only have some left in panzer armies.


    Again, this guide works well up to Emperor level. Suggestions for improving this guide and strategy are always welcome.

    Enjoy.

    PF
     
  14. Ision

    Ision Master

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    planetfall,

    I do not remember giving you permission to post a 'strat guide' with my civ review!

    On the other hand, you made so many good points - that I have decided to forgive you.

    lol

    Ision
     
  15. planetfall

    planetfall Chieftain

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    Ision,

    RFE for you: strat guide for each civ review.

    lol

    PF
     
  16. Tranquility

    Tranquility Grand unifier

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    I admit i've won domination victories with panzers(with no previous wars). Wars done quick cause rthey move fast, and they can move in your empire from pint A to B in no time, so as soon as one war's done, another victim!
     
  17. yoshi74

    yoshi74 Tourist from Mars

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    No, not really. I had enough tanks in my current game attack twice a round (and win of cource) and only got one leader the whole game (even after the heroic epic). However, the english are not the german, and not militaristic. So i think the chances for a panzer to get promoted are just good enough that a double win nearly always gets a promotion. I remember my last game where i played as the zulu and invaded in the tank era the other continent. The Sumerians, owning this continent for 90% threw everything but the kittchen sink at me, lots cav, inf, MI, longbows :). I got 3 MGL's during a single round, rushed several markets with them ;). During the whole game i got at least 20 MGL. The militaristic trait makes a huge difference in getting promotions. Thats way it seems the panzer have a promotion garantie
     
  18. scoutsout

    scoutsout Minstrel Boy

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    Um...I was talking about "promotions", not Great leaders... an elite unit cannot get "promoted".

    For example, a regular warrior pops a goody hut, gets barbs. If the warrior gets attacked by 2 of the barbs on the next turn, he'll get promoted to veteran (if he survives). If a veteran Panzer attacks (and kills) an enemy unit, and then kills another unit on the same turn, the vast majority of the time you'll get an elite panzer out of the deal...

    The way I understand it, the odds of an elite unit popping a GL in a second combat in the same turn are no greater than the first combat... the odds on the GL are treated as two separate, isolated events.
     
  19. yoshi74

    yoshi74 Tourist from Mars

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    So not always ;) The odds for promotion are quite good for a militaristic civ, so this happens a lot. And a leader is also a kind of promotion i think.
     
  20. planetfall

    planetfall Chieftain

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    Elite promotion of panzers happens almost every time. Generation of MGL is slower. I usually get only 4..6 per game. Thus I build the MilAcad.
     

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