The great global warming swindle

This whole film has already been refuted on many different websites. http://www.realclimate.org/ has some good info but I think its web server crashed from too many hits. Even one of the contributors now writes that he feels like he got swindled by the director of the film. The director of the film also has some questionable political ties and is noted for his anti-environmentalist views. This film is really nothing more than propaganda.

Swindled: Carl Wunsch responds
Filed under:

* Climate Science
* Climate modelling
* Oceans
* Reporting on climate

— group @ 8:34 am

The following letter from Carl Wunsch is intended to clarify his views on global warming in general, and the The Great Global Warming Swindle which misrepresented them.
Partial Response to the London Channel 4 Film "The Global Warming Swindle"

Carl Wunsch 11 March 2007

I believe that climate change is real, a major threat, and almost surely has a major human-induced component. But I have tried to stay out of the `climate wars' because all nuance tends to be lost, and the distinction between what we know firmly, as scientists, and what we suspect is happening, is so difficult to maintain in the presence of rhetorical excess. In the long run, our credibility as scientists rests on being very careful of, and protective of, our authority and expertise.

The science of climate change remains incomplete. Some elements are so firmly based on well-understood principles, or for which the observational record is so clear, that most scientists would agree that they are almost surely true (adding CO2 to the atmosphere is dangerous; sea level will continue to rise,...). Other elements remain more uncertain, but we as scientists in our roles as informed citizens believe society should be deeply concerned about their possibility: failure of US midwestern precipitation in 100 years in a mega-drought; melting of a large part of the Greenland ice sheet, among many other examples.

I am on record in a number of places complaining about the over-dramatization and unwarranted extrapolation of scientific facts. Thus the notion that the Gulf Stream would or could "shut off" or that with global warming Britain would go into a "new ice age" are either scientifically impossible or so unlikely as to threaten our credibility as a scientific discipline if we proclaim their reality [i.e. see this previous RC post]. They also are huge distractions from more immediate and realistic threats. I've paid more attention to the extreme claims in the literature warning of coming catastrophe, both because I regard the scientists there as more serious, and because I am very sympathetic to the goals of my colleagues who sometimes seem, however, to be confusing their specific scientific knowledge with their worries about the future.

When approached by WAGTV, on behalf of Channel 4, known to me as one of the main UK independent broadcasters, I was led to believe that I would be given an opportunity to explain why I, like some others, find the statements at both extremes of the global change debate distasteful. I am, after all a teacher, and this seemed like a good opportunity to explain why, for example, I thought more attention should be paid to sea level rise, which is ongoing and unstoppable and carries a real threat of acceleration, than to the unsupportable claims that the ocean circulation was undergoing shutdown (Nature, December 2005).

I wanted to explain why observing the ocean was so difficult, and why it is so tricky to predict with any degree of confidence such important climate elements as its heat and carbon storage and transports in 10 or 100 years. I am distrustful of prediction scenarios for details of the ocean circulation that rely on extremely complicated coupled models that run out for decades to thousands of years. The science is not sufficiently mature to say which of the many complex elements of such forecasts are skillful. Nonetheless, and contrary to the impression given in the film, I firmly believe there is a great deal to be learned from models. With effort, all of this is explicable in terms the public can understand.

In the part of the "Swindle" film where I am describing the fact that the ocean tends to expel carbon dioxide where it is warm, and to absorb it where it is cold, my intent was to explain that warming the ocean could be dangerous---because it is such a gigantic reservoir of carbon. By its placement in the film, it appears that I am saying that since carbon dioxide exists in the ocean in such large quantities, human influence must not be very important --- diametrically opposite to the point I was making --- which is that global warming is both real and threatening in many different ways, some unexpected.

Many of us feel an obligation to talk to the media---it's part of our role as scientists, citizens, and educators. The subjects are complicated, and it is easy to be misquoted or quoted out context. My experience in the past is that these things do happen, but usually inadvertently --- most reporters really do want to get it right.

Channel 4 now says they were making a film in a series of "polemics". There is nothing in the communication we had (much of it on the telephone or with the film crew on the day they were in Boston) that suggested they were making a film that was one-sided, anti-educational, and misleading. I took them at face value---clearly a great error. I knew I had no control over the actual content, but it never occurred to me that I was dealing with people who already had a reputation for distortion and exaggeration.

The letter I sent them as soon as I heard about the actual program is below. [available here]

As a society, we need to take out insurance against catastrophe in the same way we take out homeowner's protection against fire. I buy fire insurance, but I also take the precaution of having the wiring in the house checked, keeping the heating system up to date, etc., all the while hoping that I won't need the insurance. Will any of these precautions work? Unexpected things still happen (lightning strike? plumber's torch igniting the woodwork?). How large a fire insurance premium is it worth paying? How much is it worth paying for rewiring the house? $10,000 but perhaps not $100,000? There are no simple answers even at this mundane level.

How much is it worth to society to restrain CO2 emissions --- will that guarantee protection against global warming? Is it sensible to subsidize insurance for people who wish to build in regions strongly susceptible to coastal flooding? These and others are truly complicated questions where often the science is not mature enough give definitive answers, much as we would like to be able to provide them. Scientifically, we can recognize the reality of the threat, and much of what society needs to insure against. Statements of concern do not need to imply that we have all the answers. Channel 4 had an opportunity to elucidate some of this. The outcome is sad.
 
Personally i belive in the Sun is the cause of the heating, but there are other reasons to be enviorment friendly ofcourse
 
Notice that scientists, while being trusted on nearly every other subject, are apparently lying and pushing forth an agenda the moment they discover something that might have a negative impact on the economy.
Personally I don't trust scientists on nearly every other subject as I would with politicians, lawyers, preachers, someone in the media and car salesmen. It's just too easy to lie or to be deceived.

I did watch it and noticed how it jump for one speaker to another so of course it's heavily edited. It makes sense some on the video didn't want to be put on the spot like that.

Even if GW is cause by man I believe there's nothing to stop cheap labor and cheap industry. We (in USA) are losing jobs (especially industry) to China faster than a coal plant putting out CO2.
 
There is now evidence that most if not all satellites of the sun are heating up....

Do our greenhouse gases fly out into the cosmos?
 
Chris, I thought this would be a good question to ask you:

"IF you're not sure, then why not cut back on the (potentially) offending problem until the science is in?"

Such a strategy would have worked with regards to smoking (waiting for the lung cancer data to shore up), the ozone hole, etc.

El, that is a very very good question and one that I have a difficult time answering.

To react to the global warming issue by cutting emissions by X percent over X number of years and removing offending items from grocery store shelves is one option. Doing nothing is another. I suppose I fall somewhere in between (if there is such a place)...reacting with pragmatism while continuing research is the most efficient method of handling the offending problem.

I find it difficult to justify doing nothing, as if this new-found media hysteria turns out even partially correct life will truly be miserable (especially here in Arizona, where it is already too damn hot). However, the risk that a major reactionary undertaking to drastically curb emissions would be devastating to the global economy.

The United States right now has roughly 600 coal fired power plants spread around the country; these power plants spew roughly 1/3 of all American CO2 emissions. Seems like an easy task right there; shut these down over a period of years and erect newer, cleaner and potentially self waste-burning nuclear plants. This would be a great way my country could curb its emissions, but unfortunately the environmental lobby has made it nearly impossible to build these nuclear power plants. We obviously won't harness enough energy from any other known source today. Technology may change that...but we both know it will take decades to implement. The American economy, and thus the world economy cannot handle such a correction.

There are other ways of reducing emissions, but none will actually do much in the short term, and sure as hell won't meet a Kyoto-based reduction of 5% below 1990 levels by 2012 (I think in fact only Sweden and the UK will be meeting that).

So short answer: I advocate taking steps to change our lifestyle but I do not advocate turning the global economy upside down in the process. If the global warming disaster is going to envelope the world as the media portrays, we are probably screwed anyways. There are rumblings of polar ice completely melting away by 2050.:eek:

Lets certainly reduce emissions, continue research into alternative fuels, and such...but let us not pummel our economies in the process.

I actually see a wee bit of irony in Al Gore's new flick; this disaster is coming at we are in deep crap and this glacier is finished and goodbye to the snows of Kiliminjaro...but lets turn the lights off when we leave the room.

That said, thanks for the question...I do appreciate the thoughtful ones.

~Chris
 
I advocate taking steps to change our lifestyle but I do not advocate turning the global economy upside down in the process.

It's an honest answer; it's also a frustrating one for people who've been advocating change for almost ten years now. The steps needn't have been as drastic if people had acted earlier. A lot of the CO2 we now have to deal with didn't need to be there.
 
It's an honest answer; it's also a frustrating one for people who've been advocating change for almost ten years now. The steps needn't have been as drastic if people had acted earlier. A lot of the CO2 we now have to deal with didn't need to be there.


You are right about that...but I would say that the measures that were advocated 10 years ago wouldn't have produced a much better position than we are in now in terms of CO2 emissions. The rate of growth of CO2 emissions have slowed considerably in both the US and Europe, but have increased significantly in the lesser developed-but fast growing-Asian countries.
http://users2.wsj.com/lmda/do/checkLogin?mg=wsj-users2&url=http%3A%2F%2Fonline.wsj.com%2Farticle_print%2FSB116606091947649743.html
EDIT: unfornately my link doesn't work because non-subscribers cannot link to it...but the info is out there.

I think the bottom line is that man is fully dependant on fossil fuels for now; eliminating them will be great but it is a long time off. Someone brought the point of running cars poisoning and killing suicidal people in their garages...this alone identifies emissions as rather nasty. Even if my suspicion is correct and global warming has much more to do with forces outside our control, I look onto a brown cloud here in Phoenix every winter morning with disgust.

A side note: keep your eyes on the NYT as there will be a piece thwarting some of Gore's hyperscience (according to Drudge).

~Chris
 
I actually first watched Gore last night. None of my position on this topic is based on his work

Can you remember how much does he say the sea levels are going to rise? I have read that he says 20 feet, but I want a reliable source.
 
Can you remember how much does he say the sea levels are going to rise? I have read that he says 20 feet, but I want a reliable source.

If I remember correctly...if all the ice in the Anatarctic were to melt it would indeed be 20'. I think he hits that part in his trailer: you can view it on his website. I thought it was terrible...but I really can't stand Al Gore either.

Goodbye Florida!

~Chris
 
Yeah, I watched for the doom and gloom (with a grain of salt); he mentions the extreme flooding if the whole of Greenland melts. I don't remember the distance, though.

I'll check it out tomorrow, and get back to you.
 
If I remember correctly...if all the ice in the Anatarctic were to melt it would indeed be 20'. I think he hits that part in his trailer: you can view it on his website. I thought it was terrible...but I really can't stand Al Gore either.

Goodbye Florida!

~Chris

Nope, according to Wiki and other sites, if all Antarctic ice melts, it would be 60 meters rise.

And according to CNSnews and other sites, Gore does say that in 2100 the sea level rise would/could be 20 feet.

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewCulture.asp?Page=/Culture/archive/200702/CUL20070222b.html said:
Another area in the movie that has raised eyebrows is Gore's suggestion that climate change could lead to a 20-foot sea level rise, jeopardizing coastal areas of the U.S., including Florida and Manhattan.

The film shows computer-generated images of water flowing into New York City and covering the area where the World Trade Center once stood, as Gore draws a link between global warming and 9/11.

"Is it possible that we should prepare against other threats besides terrorists?" he asks. "Maybe we should be concerned about other problems as well."

But climate experts who have spoken with Cybercast News Service scoff at the "alarmist" claim.

Even the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), supposedly the basis of scientific "consensus" on the issue, does not project sea rise levels anywhere near 20 feet.

Instead, the IPCC predicts a sea level rise by the end of the 21st century of between 0.3 feet and 2.8 feet with a "central value" of 1.5 feet.

Man... between 0.3 feet and 2.8 feet, by the end of the 21st century. They do give themselves a pretty wide margin of error :lol:

But, anyway, if they couldn't guess correctly the sea level rise in a 6 years long computer model, Does anybody believe they can estimate what the sea level rise would be 93 years from now?
 
Translation: You redefined "hole in the ozone layer" to mean "no ozone at all". This in the context of gas distribution in an atmosphere.

Of course, a hole in the ozone layer can only mean 'not ozone at all". That is the meaning of 'hole' in any context, including light absorption. What It cannot be possible is that a 300 Dobson units thick ozone layer is a normal average ozone layer and a 220 (or 200 for that matter) Dobson units thick ozone layer is a hole in the ozone layer.

Light absorption is a physical property of matter governed by the Beer-Lambert law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beer-Lambert_law said:
In optics, the Beer-Lambert law, also known as Beer's law or the Lambert-Beer law or the Beer-Lambert-Bouguer law is an empirical relationship that relates the absorption of light to the properties of the material through which the light is traveling.

This law is also applied to describe the attenuation of solar radiation as it travels through the atmosphere <formula snipped> where each ?x is the optical depth whose subscript identifies the source of the absorption or scattering it describes.

You see? UV absorption by ozone depends on the thickness of the ozone layer, or concentration of ozone in the atmosphere. And, as I said, if a 300 Dobson units ozone layer is a normal average ozone layer that absorbs UV light, then a 200 Dobson units ozone layer will also absorb UV light, less than a 300 Dobson units ozone layer, but more than a 100 Dobson units ozone layer. Only a 0 Dobson units ozone layer doesn't absorb UV light at all and only that should be called a 'hole' in the ozone layer.

Besides, If you call a 200 Dobson units ozone layer an ozone hole. How would you call a 100 Dobson units ozone layer?

I hate to state the obvious but a 200 Dobson units ozone layer is a 200 Dobson units ozone layer, and a 100 Dobson units ozone layer is a 100 Dobson units ozone layer. And, if you take the Beer-Lambert law into account, both layers adsorb UV light, therefore, they are ozone layers, not holes.

Despite of the fact that scientists reunited in conclave agreed by consensus to call a 200 Dobson units ozone layer an ozone hole, a 200 Dobson units ozone layer is still a layer, not a hole. Calling a tail a leg does not make it one.

This kind of consensus reminds me of the christian dogmas, specially the trinity one; you can't understand it. It is contradictory (a 200 Dobson units layer is a hole?), but you have to agree with it because scientist reunited in conclave said so. NOPE, that is not how science works. Science works with facts and the fact is that, by the Beer-Lambert law, a 200 Dobson units ozone layer absorbs UV light and therefore it is NOT a hole. No matter how many scientists say otherwise.

Since when science became so black or white? So lacking of gradation? It seems to be either a normal ozone layer or a hole. Same happens with the global warming issue. Seems to be either 100 % anthropogenic or 100 % natural. I am the only one who contemplates the possibility of being multicausal?
 
And me again with some comments of this list:
If I would rephrase the question like this: "who has and had enough power and money to bribe thousands of scientists over more than 2 decades to put forward the global warming theory? ", would you present the same list?

Now let's go through the list:
"Scientists who need grants or have an agenda to push"
Grants are mainliy distributed by funding agencies, which are luckily quite independent, but still controlled by politics. So you are telling me that the people working at the funding agencies are either corrupted as well or to incompetent to see that they are cheated on? And the politicians who are controlling these agencies don't get it either? I think I don't have to remind you that the current US-administration is not known to be very much in favor of global warming theories?

"People who sell "Clean Energy Credits" "
Those are around since 1 or 2 years, so yes perhaps they now make profit, but they surely didn't have the necessary power to corrupt science.

"The media who need another story to scare people"
This is perhaps the only group of people where I slightly understand your point. But then may ask you: how did they do it? I mean I never even heard of one incidence where a media-company funded a research group. And don't you think that other companies like fox-news or like any other conservative newspaper would have reported about it?

"Politics- Kyoto, puts obligations on developed countries to curb their industry while other countries are not under equal obligation."
For me it seems quite logic that those who are the biggest causer of a problem make the biggest effort to regulate the problem. Quite simple, isn't it?
And by the way, you say in general "politics". Who exactly do you mean? All of politics, including US republicans?

"Alternative energy or clean energy technology industries"
Again, they are far from being powerful enough.

Do you really think your list is convincing?

Greets, Goa

I didn't make the list to say these groups had real power, I just said it to say who exactly could benefit from selling global warming

I am actually starting to come round to the idea of man-made global warming now. The scientific consensus is getting stronger and I really think they've got it right. However I haven't been completely sold on the idea yet

And about the politics part- I mean to say that many countries benefit their economies from pumping pollution like there's no tommorow. Developing countries stand to benefit at the expense of developed countries. I agree that it's justified in the sense that developed countries have contributed the biggest share of Greenhouse gases but all the same, somebody can exploit the fears to bolster the economy of their own country relative to others
 
I didn't make the list to say these groups had real power, I just said it to say who exactly could benefit from selling global warming
In this case we agree.
I just responded because a lot of people use this kind of list to bolster their conspiracy theories, but you have to admit that to fund a conspiracy of this extent, and with a stamina reaching over more than two decades (Hell, which company makes long-time investments that reach more than 1 decade into the future? ) you need very powerfull, illwilling and rich organisations, and those I din't find on the list.

I am actually starting to come round to the idea of man-made global warming now. The scientific consensus is getting stronger and I really think they've got it right. However I haven't been completely sold on the idea yet
So there is a slight chance that my efforts on this forum aren't completely lost? That's encouraging.

And about the politics part- I mean to say that many countries benefit their economies from pumping pollution like there's no tommorow. Developing countries stand to benefit at the expense of developed countries. I agree that it's justified in the sense that developed countries have contributed the biggest share of Greenhouse gases but all the same, somebody can exploit the fears to bolster the economy of their own country relative to others
Firstly, the main part of climate research is done in the developped countries, the ones who will have to cut down the most, so it doesn't really make sense.

Where I agree is that the whole thing can (and most certainly will)be exploited by anyone who thinks he can make a buck out of it, that's beyond any doubt. But please don't fall to the logical fallacy that as there are people who will exploit it (I could think of a couple of organisations / lobby groups who already do it) that the scientific background must be wrong.
So to reword: Don't doubt the scientific background, but check the proposed remedies for their efficiency.
 
Since when science became so black or white? So lacking of gradation? It seems to be either a normal ozone layer or a hole. Same happens with the global warming issue. Seems to be either 100 % anthropogenic or 100 % natural. I am the only one who contemplates the possibility of being multicausal?

Sorry for loosing my patience, but are you dumb or unhonest? Gothmog, myself and others are repeating again and again that no scientist claims this. Why are you repeating this again and again and again. SCIENTISTS KNOW THAT THERE ARE ANTHROPOGENIC AND NATURAL FACTORS INFLUENCING CLIMATE. THERE IS NOT ONE CLIMATE SCIENTIST CLAIMING THAT THERE ARE NO NATURAL VARIABILITIES IN CLIMATE. Got it?

And what's now the thing with the ozone hole. If I interprete what you have written there correctly, you agree that due to human activity, and especially the emission of CFCs, the concentration of stratospheric ozone declined. The result of a lower concentration of stratospheric ozone results in higher incident UV radiation which is known to cause skin-cancer. For this reason, an international agreements was taken to ban the use of these CFCs. Thanks to this agreement, the Ozone concentration is recovering.
Would you agree up to here?
And in this case, is your only problem in the story that someone called it ozone hole? I mean it's just a word, which perhaps is a bit to drastical.
 
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