Sure, all these were main reasons which contributed to the gruesome outcome. The question remains whether bolsheviks really tried to alleviate these problems, or did they took advantage of the suffering or even deepened it - since this no doubt helped them to achieve their goal of suppressing "Ukrainian bourgeois nationalism"?
The Great Purge
- Thread starter red_elk
- Start date
They have the best base available at the time. Volkogonov may not have data from TsGAOR, recently declassified. And if you think Zemskov and other authors are Soviet sympathizers, you didn't read their article.
Agree. But Zemskov certainly is not a "fringe", and his group is using most recent data, mainstream had not access to.
Ok.
I read part of the article.
Sorry, but this is BS. This claim badly contradicts with even "mainstream" data, according to which, there were in total about 14 millions of people went through GULAG.
He inflated numbers by 40 times. Author is not historian, he is a propagandist.
The data avaiable was enough to estimate that much. The number can increase, I don't see how it can decrease.
If he thinks only 2-3 millions died under Stalin, he certainly is fringe.
Where is that quote from? Here is the breakwdon of the Soviet democide according to Rummel. Note that his low estimate for Camp/Transit death is of 14 millions; and note that it includes transit deaths (millions were killed in the deportation process, specially among the deported nationalities, and not in the camps proper). And note that besides the GULAG, mainstream estimates point to a further 6 million people that went to other camps.
Anyway, personally I don't believe the 41 millions number; the best evidence points to 20 millions.
My point was that Volkogonov is definately on the conservative side as far as Stalin's democide go. Other than soviet sympathisers, most estimates point to even bigger death tolls.
He might use wrong assumptions for extrapolation.
He might count famine deaths as victims of repressions, which is doubtful.
There are no documentary confirmation for 20 million deaths.
What about other historians, who were recently working with archives? Isaev? Dugin? Isnt it strange that all of them became "fringe" after getting to know the documents? I cannot found any recent historical analysis of Moscow documents (TsGAOR and others), which is confirming Volkogonov numbers. If you have one, give it please.
Can you comment article of Zemskov (first link from the first message)?
There is a link from article, you gave in your previous message (see Paper: how many did communism murder?, __http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/COM.ART.HTM__)
Anyway, I don't think it's worth discussing.
CruelDwarf
Chieftain
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No more famines in USSR. Soviet agricultural system was build and start working at last.
As about "supressing bourgeois nationalism" - soviet authorities held all power needed for more easier ways to deal with such things. Ways without starving out their main supporters - poorest ukrainian peasants, who was far more vulnerable to famine, then weatlhy ones.
lovett
Deity
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Yeah. Funny that. I guess Khruschev imported 20 million tonnes of grain from Canada for kicks and giggles. No way it could have been to stave off a massive famine. No way at all. Soviet agriculture was an unqualified success.
CruelDwarf
Chieftain
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Sorry, but Kruschev time agriculture was something totally different from agriculture of late 30s-40s. Don't jump from one matter to another.
One simple note - just compare food consumption per capita of 60s and 30s.
One simple note - just compare food consumption per capita of 60s and 30s.
This is Radio Yerevan. Our listeners asked: "Is there a way to solve unsolvable problem?"
We answer: "We do not answer questions related to agriculture..."
lovett
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So the fact that there were no famines in the USSR is totally besides the point then?
And yeah, totally different is really stretching it. It still operated on the fundamental principles of collectivisation, the only difference being that some new things were tried. The fact that these experiments were performed on a massive scale and produced correspondingly massive agricultural shortages was only possible because of collectivised agriculture.
The famines very much need to be included in the death toll, considering that they were the result of political decisions and monstrous, barbaric execution of said policies.
20 millions is the number most widely accepted by scholars; some respected scholars suggest more, some suggest a little less. I doubt the truth is far from this number.
One thing is certain, the famines alone killed more than 3 million people in Stalin's rule, so the 2-3 millions estimate is absoulte, apologistic BS.
You are not trying hard enough. Alexander Yakovlev, who also had priviledged access to documents, believed that more than 20 millions were killed.
I never heard of the historians you mention, but I am skeptical of the kind of historian that would emerge in Putin's uber-nationalistic Russia, in denial of it's past.
Whoever claims that the victims of Stalin number only from 2-3 millions, though, is a lier and a Stalin apologist. The famines alone killed more; the most credible experts estimate that 10 times more people died. Those people are on the same moral level as those that claim that 50,000 jews were killed in the Holocaust.
It's a rather long article, I haven't read it fully yet.
One thing worth mention, however, is to avoid comparing apples and orages, as has been mentioned. The article's title clearly states that it is interested in debating the number of victims of the pre-war penal system. Reading on, it appears to be a dissertation of the Great Purges.
On first sight, it doesn't appear to be differing much from Volkogonov in that regard. As mentioned in the article, Volkogonov's estimates for the victims of the 1937-1938 terror range from 3.5 to 4.5 millions. The article claims that it is possible to document aprox. 2.5 millions victims; it is not hard to infer that the real number is therefore higher than that.
They have plenty of interesting data there. Note that even though he is blaming Stalin's 41 million deaths mostly on the GULAG, which is probably misworded, he is also including "and transit thereto". The number of victims of the soviet penal system greatly exceeds the prisional population, because, as documented, huge numbers of people died in transit to Siberia, due to extremely harsh condition, bad treatments and countless executions for even the perceived little offences.
We are discussing here victims of repressions, e.g. people died in prisons, exile places, and executed people. The reason is because documents I'm referring to doesn't contain data about famines. You are inventing and disproving your own claims - I didn't say that number of 2-3 millions of people include famine victims.
For wide acceptance - I don't see it, except some links to literature BS, like those with 39 millions died in GULAG. Do you have historical researches? I need a link to historical article with proper analysis of documents, and with confirmation of 20 millions number. "Everybody knows" works well until there are no disproving evidences. Now we have a number of such evidences and it would be good to define our position.
I asked about historians. Preferrably with link to their works. Yakovlev was polititian.
It means you don't know topic well. At least for Zemskov, there are plenty of references to his works, even in wikipedia. Try searching.
One interesting example:
According to de-classified archive data released by the successor agency to the KGB after Perestroika, a total of 1,053,829 people died in the GULAG from 1934 to 1953, not counting those who died in labor colonies[6]. The total population of the camps varied from 510,307 (in 1934) to 1,727,970 (in 1953)[7].
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulag
Note that your "mainstream" number is 20 times higher than total number of GULAG victims, which supposed to be a significant share of all victims of Stalin's repressions.
Then read it, at least briefly, because all what you've written so far about the article shows that you didn't read anything except title. It gives numbers for not only pre-war years.
After that I hope we can normally discuss it. For now, I'm passing off your words about nationalism and comparison to holocaust as caused by lacking of proper argumentation.
Well then you have not read my posts. I have stated multiple times that the 20 millions number, which is widely accepted by mainstream scholars everywhere including Russia, includes all victims of stalinist terror. It is patently obvious that there were not 20 millions executions. This is Volkogonov's position as well.
Do you disagree with the number of 20 millions people killed by stalinist policies during all of Stalin's rule, including famines, forced deportations transit deaths, executions, forced labor, etc, etc?
For starters, that link is by historical researchers with far more international credibility than any of those russians you posted.
I never said that "everybody know" that 20 millions died in the GULAG; in fact I said precisely that I don't believe in that. That number, which is in fact widely accepted, if the sum of victims of the whole period. I believe in Volkogonov's estimate, which is in fact in line with that of the article you posted.
Eh. Yakovlev was a politician, but he was also a historical researcher with many published books. Try for example his book A Century of Violence in Soviet Russia. Again, Yakovlev has much more mainstream credibility than any of the authors you linked to.
No, it seems that you don't know the topic at all. You mistake victims of the soviet penal system with victims of the soviet union in general, repeatdly. I take it that you never read Volkogonov?
Just the famines that resulted from soviet barbaric policies during Stalin's rule killed about 3.5 million people in the Ukraine alone. Add everything up and see how 20 millions is a conservative estimate.
I have read it briefly, and can't help but notice that you compare apples and oranges. Just look at Table 1 and see that their claim of documented victims of the 1937-1938 is compatible with Volkogonov's. Throughout the article, he does not challenge Volkogonov's estimates.
At any rate, this is only about the penal system, not including famines and the brutal and murderous policies that Stalin enacted during the war, which certainly should also be credited to him.
Furthermore, as even this Zemovsk fellow admits in his notes about sources, he based all of this in the analysis of less than 3,000 files from a rather restricted source. Volkogonov has access to literally millions of documents, and conduced a research on Stalin for over a decade. His book are by far the best documented and most credited internationally. Nothing in the article makes me think otherwise.
Did you read what this topic is about?
And you said something about nationalists and "holocaust deniers" who count all victims as 2-3 millions. May be it is you who doesn't read posts?
For now, you posted only one link to back up this widely accepted position. This link claimed 40 millions.
Define in details. If you only add famine victims to original number, which would mean 17-18 millions of deaths because of famine - I disagree.
For starters, that link contains crap about 39 millions of people died in GULAG, which is exaggerated by 40 times and contradicts your own claims. I didn't bother further reading.
I stated precisely what kind of victims includes those 2-3 millions, you didn't read the message.
Volkogonov's number for victims of repressions in the late 30's is 3.5 millions. It contradicts with documentary sources, and this is clearly declared in article of Zemskov. Read again.
I'm still waiting for links to historical researches.
Still at it, I see... 2-3 million victims of stalinism isn't a widely accepted number - except in communist civles, perhaps - 20 million is. (Just try googling Great Purge.) It seems the sources quoted here are very selective.
plarq
Crazy forever
The communists wouldn't admit any mass starvation or murder here. If someone defends Stalin by saying "Only 2 million people died in the famine", then he or she must be a pathetic defender. True defender will believe anyone killed in that timeframe is a counterrevolutionary, and any mass toll number more than 1,000 is a western propaganda.
And where I claimed that 2-3 millions are all victims of stalinism? From this number, 800,000 can be counted as "victims of stalinism", as executed political inmates.
Also government at least partially responsible for deaths because of famine, but I didn't consider them here, because they were not repressed.
How could you read sites of evil occupants! 
BTW, it's still
"Нефть $60 - У нас есть ядерная кнопка!"
BTW, it's still
"Нефть $60 - У нас есть ядерная кнопка!"
@Red Elk
You keep attacking my sources, but post selected and absolutely obscure writers that nobody ever heard about. Dmitri Volkogonov was a soviet gerenal, head of the history department of the soviet army, and lead the commission that declassified 78 million Moscow Files. I have his Stalin biography in my hands right now, and it references TsGAOR many times, which you implied he did not have acces to. Your author does not have one tenth of the credentials of Volkogonov, not mention credibility. Yakovlev, which you dismissed as "a politician", was also a far more respected and credible researcher than any of those you mentioned. His estimates are superior to those of Volkogonov.
Having firmly stablished the superiority of Volkogonov over this Zemskov that you seem to like to so much, I'll insist that the article of the latter does fails to disprove Volkogonov. As you mentioned yourself, Volkogonov's number for the repression of the late 30's is of 3.5 millions - on the table 1 of Zemskov's article, we see his claim that the number proven by documents would be of aprox. 2.5 millions. 3.5 millions is therefore not a bad estimate, according to Zemskov, considering that the real number will certainly be bigger than 2.5.
So I will repeat, once again, that Volkogonov is the most credible source and his estimate is the one most accepted by mainstream scholars. His estimates for the total victims of Stalin, which do include famines and deportation deaths relates or not to the GULAG, is of 19 - 22 millions. His book Stalin:Triumph and Tragedy has about one thousand document references, and as I already mentioned, was written by a man with access to 78 million documents and in an unique position to write about russian history, unmatched.
To not include the famines, which were in part manufactured and in part the result of inhuman policies and inhuman executions of those policies, is to flirt with apologism. It is obvious that confiscating the production of peasants, taking the lands of the kulaks, forcing collectivization on a people that outright rejected it and so on can only be classified as repression. The same goes for the deported nationalities. Just between 1941 and 1919, Stalin deported 3.3 million people. Do you think those chechens (and : Ukrainians, Poles, Koreans, Volga Germans, Crimean Tatars, Kalmyks, Ingush, Balkars, Karachays, Meskhetian Turks, Finns, Bulgarians, Greeks, Latvians, Lithuanians, Estonians, Jews) wanted to to be deported? Do you think none died on their way, while they were treated like beasts and received little or no food? Imagine how many died during his whole rule, imagine what expected them in their final destination.
Even Wiki's article on the number of victims of Stalin backs the notion that the dictator prouduced at least 10 million "surplus deaths" during his reign of terror, and likely 20 millions. And it is referenced, and mentions russian historians.
10 millions is the documented minimum ground for civilized discussion. Below that, we enter apologist-land.
You keep attacking my sources, but post selected and absolutely obscure writers that nobody ever heard about. Dmitri Volkogonov was a soviet gerenal, head of the history department of the soviet army, and lead the commission that declassified 78 million Moscow Files. I have his Stalin biography in my hands right now, and it references TsGAOR many times, which you implied he did not have acces to. Your author does not have one tenth of the credentials of Volkogonov, not mention credibility. Yakovlev, which you dismissed as "a politician", was also a far more respected and credible researcher than any of those you mentioned. His estimates are superior to those of Volkogonov.
Having firmly stablished the superiority of Volkogonov over this Zemskov that you seem to like to so much, I'll insist that the article of the latter does fails to disprove Volkogonov. As you mentioned yourself, Volkogonov's number for the repression of the late 30's is of 3.5 millions - on the table 1 of Zemskov's article, we see his claim that the number proven by documents would be of aprox. 2.5 millions. 3.5 millions is therefore not a bad estimate, according to Zemskov, considering that the real number will certainly be bigger than 2.5.
So I will repeat, once again, that Volkogonov is the most credible source and his estimate is the one most accepted by mainstream scholars. His estimates for the total victims of Stalin, which do include famines and deportation deaths relates or not to the GULAG, is of 19 - 22 millions. His book Stalin:Triumph and Tragedy has about one thousand document references, and as I already mentioned, was written by a man with access to 78 million documents and in an unique position to write about russian history, unmatched.
To not include the famines, which were in part manufactured and in part the result of inhuman policies and inhuman executions of those policies, is to flirt with apologism. It is obvious that confiscating the production of peasants, taking the lands of the kulaks, forcing collectivization on a people that outright rejected it and so on can only be classified as repression. The same goes for the deported nationalities. Just between 1941 and 1919, Stalin deported 3.3 million people. Do you think those chechens (and : Ukrainians, Poles, Koreans, Volga Germans, Crimean Tatars, Kalmyks, Ingush, Balkars, Karachays, Meskhetian Turks, Finns, Bulgarians, Greeks, Latvians, Lithuanians, Estonians, Jews) wanted to to be deported? Do you think none died on their way, while they were treated like beasts and received little or no food? Imagine how many died during his whole rule, imagine what expected them in their final destination.
Even Wiki's article on the number of victims of Stalin backs the notion that the dictator prouduced at least 10 million "surplus deaths" during his reign of terror, and likely 20 millions. And it is referenced, and mentions russian historians.
10 millions is the documented minimum ground for civilized discussion. Below that, we enter apologist-land.
Well, the wiki article about Stalin referenced him 3 times, while Volkogonov has only one reference as author of alternative point of view together with Yakovlev and few other people. I understand that wikipedia is not the most credible source, but it has something to do with mainstream point of view.
Table contains number of total arrests.
Sorry, but article absolutely clearly disproves Volkogonov numbers:
Mainstream published estimates of the total numbers of “victims of repression” in the late 1930s have ranged from Dmitrii Volkogonov's 3.5 million to Ol'ga Shatunovskaia's nearly 20 million. (See Table 1.) The bases for these assessments are unclear in most cases and seem to have come from guesses, rumors, or extrapolations from isolated local observations
...
Turning to executions and custodial deaths in the entire Stalin period, we know that, between 1934 and 1953, 1,053,829 persons died in the camps of the GULAG. We have data to the effect that some 86,582 people perished in prisons between 1939 and 1951. (We do not yet know exactly how many died in labor colonies.) We also know that, between 1930 and 1952-1953, 786,098 “counter-revolutionaries” were executed (or, according to another source, more than 775,866 persons “on cases of the police” and for “political crimes”. Finally, we know that, from 1932 through 1940, 389,521 peasants died in places of “kulak” resettlement. Adding these figures together would produce a total of a little more than 2.3 million, but this can in no way be taken as an exact number. First of all, there is a possible overlap between the numbers given for GULAG camp deaths and “political” executions as well as between the latter and other victims of the 1937-1938 mass purges and perhaps also other categories falling under police jurisdiction. Double-counting would deflate the 2.3 million figure. On the other hand, the 2.3 million does not include several suspected categories of death in custody. It does not include, for example, deaths among deportees during and after the war as well as among categories of exiles other than “kulaks.”
This contradicts with Volkogonov's 3.5 millions for late 30's only.
Agree that he is quite credible, but it doesn't make him right automatically. Solzhenitsyn is also very credible and has many references, it doesn't change the fact that numbers from his books are badly exaggerated.
I wouldnt count famine victims as victims of repressions, together with people intentionally killed, which doesn't mean I'm justifying such governmental actions. And I didn't start discussing them just because I havent got enough information about famine victims yet. For deported people - they certainly must be included except those who were not innocent. Some groups were deported during a war because they were collaborating with Nazis, thus such action was in interests of the country, which was fighting for survival.
I'm sure you noticed the other parts of the same section.
I was quite surprised that even English wikipedia (not to mention Russian), begins section about number of victims, with data from and references to Zemskov articles, like the most recent and reliable information.
The number of 4 millions (without famine victims) is possible, because I haven't seen clear disproval of that so far. But Volkogonov numbers are much higher, I cannot agree with it.
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