The Harbor Plan (by Justus)

[Shaitan]

I'm not sure if we're having a turn tonight. If we are then we need to decide quickly if we will implementJustus' Harbor Plan. We have to do this quickly as it will impact virtually every department and the Leaders need to know what instructions to give the President.

 

[eyrei]

The domestic department does not support spending this much money on these harbors, when roads can be built in a few more turns at zero costs.

 

[Shaitan]

The Department of Foreign Affairs will support this plan on the condition that a Trade deal with China be struck this turn. We have 2 methods to deal with Chinese agression - deals (prevention) and allies (reaction). Our Departmental goal for this turn is to solidify relations with the Iroquois. We will delay this for a chat turn if an additional deal with China can be procured, as this should make the Chinese hesitant to declare war.

 

[Justus II]

As Shaitan said, this affects nearly every department, due to the cost. Maybe it would have been better to have two polls, one for rushing the first harbor, in our homeland, and a second for the Egyptian harbor. The reason is I think most agree we need at least one harbor to start trading with our rivals. Then we would be comparing the cost of only the egyptian harbor. I am not sure, but I thought Chieftess calculated it would take 19 turns to complete the roads, counting time to get workers there. That is a long time for the Egyptian cities to be in unrest.

 

[Shaitan]

This will quiet down a substantial amount when the last Egyptian city is taken. It will further subside when peace with the Aztecs is acquired.

 

[donsig]

originally posted by eyrei:

The domestic department does not support spending this much money on these harbors, when roads can be built in a few more turns at zero costs.

Our domestic leader has the support of the Opposition on this one.

 

[Grey Fox]

As I have said before, there already are workers building roads through the mountain. So Egypt will be connected soon.

I'll agree with that we could rush ONE Harbor, or BUILD One harbor, to initiate trade deals.

 

[chiefpaco]

I think the departments should stick with their budgets & if that allows a harbour somewhere to be rushed, then so be it. After all, the budgets were made for a reason.

 

[Cyc]

Sorry Justus II. I'm with the President here. It was obvious 2 days ago we had workers in the mountain area. The connecting road will be done soon. I also believe the Chinese will take our goods and laugh in our face. We will have a harbor in Shailonegha in 8 turns? I believe, and that's soon enough for a low end trade deal with low life Chinese or extending our luxuries to our newly taken lands. An excellent proposal and politiking on your part though.

 

[Chieftess]

I abstained since I'm undecided on the two. I knew about those workers in the mountains (it was 14 turns for the other workers), but I didn't know offhand how long it would take for those Egyptian workers to build roads.

But, I would say yes to building atleast one harbor for trade.

 

[Justus II]

Well, it was ONLY a suggestion . . .

Anyway, I was not aware of those workers, must have missed it somewhere. I would still be in favor of rushing one harbor, at New Falcon or Shailo, to start trades, not only with China but also India. We can pick up luxuries and cash. As for the budget, I'm not sure if that is Domestic or Trade, not for me to decide.

 

[Zur]

The Department of Foreign Affairs will support this plan on the condition that a Trade deal with China be struck this turn.

Beijing has a harbour and wants incense and ivory from us. If we have a harbour in Shai, I am pretty sure our 2 capitals will be connected. I do not think it is possible to estimate in advanc how much we will get from them though. We can also trade incense to Chinese & ivory to Greece immediately with the harbour in Shai.

Maybe it would have been better to have two polls, one for rushing the first harbor, in our homeland, and a second for the Egyptian harbor. The reason is I think most agree we need at least one harbor to start trading with our rivals. Then we would be comparing the cost of only the egyptian harbor.

I absolutely agree with this. The cost for the 1st harbour could be easily covered by our future exports (see Trade Dept. thread). As such, I will delay my vote until there is a change in poll choices. If not, I will abstain. IMO, the first harbour should be rushed due to the opportunity cost of not exporting at least 2 luxuries.

 

[Shaitan]

quote:
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Maybe it would have been better to have two polls, one for rushing the first harbor, in our homeland, and a second for the Egyptian harbor. The reason is I think most agree we need at least one harbor to start trading with our rivals. Then we would be comparing the cost of only the egyptian harbor.
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Originally posted by Zur
I absolutely agree with this. The cost for the 1st harbour could be easily covered by our future exports (see Trade Dept. thread). As such, I will delay my vote until there is a change in poll choices. If not, I will abstain. IMO, the first harbour should be rushed due to the opportunity cost of not exporting at least 2 luxuries.

No, my friends. This poll is the one that was intended. The net effect of Justus' plan is what will affect the other departments. The main effect of drawing the entire treasury is that other departments will not have funds for this chat turn and have to plan accordingly. If a single harbor is built it can be done through regular means, allowing budgets to the other depts. It's the plan in its entirety that needs to be approved or disapproved as the entire plan is what would affect the rest of the depts.

 

[Shaitan]

Given that the Domestic Leader and President have voted against the plan and it has marginal (albeit tenacious) support I'd recommend that other Leaders plan their activities without the plan.

 

[Zur]

No, my friends. This poll is the one that was intended. The net effect of Justus' plan is what will affect the other departments. The main effect of drawing the entire treasury is that other departments will not have funds for this chat turn and have to plan accordingly. If a single harbor is built it can be done through regular means, allowing budgets to the other depts. It's the plan in its entirety that needs to be approved or disapproved as the entire plan is what would affect the rest of the depts.

Am I missing something but why is it that 2 separate polls can't be held for each of the harbours? Your post didn't really explain that.

 

[Cyc]

Zur - he didn't say two more polls couldn't be run for the two harbors. He said "this" poll was for Justus II's proposal as a whole and should be seen as that. This poll was for this proposal with its attachments to other departments in the next turn chart.

 

[Shaitan]

Originally posted by Cyc
Zur - he didn't say two more polls couldn't be run for the two harbors. He said "this" poll was for Justus II's proposal as a whole and should be seen as that. This poll was for this proposal with its attachments to other departments in the next turn chart.

Yeah, that's it!

Thanks for the clarifier, Cyc.

 

[Zur]

I misunderstood, my apologies to Shai.

Off topic: What's the current status with adding or dropping choices in polls? Would the poll need to be reposted and a revote done? What if this happens too close to the next turn chat?

 

[Shaitan]

Originally posted by Zur
Off topic: What's the current status with adding or dropping choices in polls? Would the poll need to be reposted and a revote done? What if this happens too close to the next turn chat?

My general position is a posted poll should never be altered mid vote. I also think that a vote should not be altered once it has been cast. If discussion invalidated the original poll to the point it had to be altered I would close the poll and open a new one. If it happened too close to the next turn chat to provide meaningful results I wouldn't start a new one. Make a decision based on the responses you did receive and/or ask for a spot Council Vote during the game chat.

 

[allhailIndia]

I shall support it if it involves the construction of one harbor only.
This is mainly to improve the scope for trading any extra luxuries/resources we have