The Harrowing of Hell

[Erik Mesoy]

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The doctrine of the Harrowing of Hell, as it was developed by the Roman Catholic Church, explained how those righteous people who lived before the Crucifixion were redeemed.

The typical Eastern Orthodox icon of the Resurrection of Jesus shows Jesus standing on the broken and flattened gates of Hell (also called the Doors of Death, which have fallen to form the pattern of a cross), holding the hands of Adam and Eve and pulling them up out of Hell, and surrounded by various righteous figures from the Old Testament (Abraham, David, etc.)

Protestant: Theological objections blah John Calvin blah...

I had a thought:

Since Heaven is outside of time, or exists in God's time (chronos/kairos), it would seem that Hell is so too, and thus Christ Jesus's possible descent into Hell may (have) include(d) invitations also for those who lived later, died without accepting Jesus, but would otherwise have been considered righteous.

Comments are welcome, as are theological condemnations of my cluelessness as being heretical. Flames against religion, drive-by or otherwise, are not. Use the poll for that. I'm not sure where I'm going with this myself; I just wanted some expansion on it.

 

[CurtSibling]

Legitimate question:

How can humans sit on earth and decide what happens to the departed?

No god has issued any edicts that cover what happened to the BC dead.

...

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Yeah, so here is what I actually think about the actual OP:

Mormonism has taught that between the death and resurrection of Christ, he went to visit those who had died without the gospel (ie pretty much veryone) to initiate the work by which they would be redeemed. And since then, of course, those who have died without the gospel are not so much judged by whether they would have accepted it, they are given a chance to accept it. In other words, far more people will accept Christ in the next life than in this one.

(This is not, of course, us passing judgment on them, this is how we think God passes judgment on them. Bg difference.)

 

[El_Machinae]

It seems to be a similar thing, just that Erik has integrated his unit of time. Erik, you're saying that the busting of the gates might result in the freedom of people AFTER 33AD? Sounds fair.

Though I tend to think of Satan's 'story' as being a linear one. Satan fell before the Garden was made, tempted Eve, tortured Job, teased Jesus, etc.

 

[puglover]

Since Heaven is outside of time, or exists in God's time (chronos/kairos), it would seem that Hell is so too, and thus Christ Jesus's possible descent into Hell may (have) include(d) invitations also for those who lived later, died without accepting Jesus, but would otherwise have been considered righteous.

Bingo. Most people fail to see God as a timeless being, and the afterlife as a place outside of standard, earthy dimensions of time. Thus, the people who died before Jesus' sacrifice would have been saved by his blood, even though on earth they failed to live past his crucifixion.

Though I tend to think of Satan's 'story' as being a linear one. Satan fell before the Garden was made, tempted Eve, tortured Job, teased Jesus, etc.

Who said Satan was timeless?

 

[Erik Mesoy]

Bingo. Most people fail to see God as a timeless being, and the afterlife as a place outside of standard, earthy dimensions of time. Thus, the people who died before Jesus' sacrifice would have been saved by his blood, even though on earth they failed to live past his crucifixion.

The point of this was sort of to discuss those people who died *after* Jesus' sacrifice. I repeat: Since Heaven is timeless, Hell might be so too, and thus Jesus would visit and find everyone who died at every time.

Legitimate question:

How can humans sit on earth and decide what happens to the departed?

No god has issued any edicts that cover what happened to the BC dead.

We're speculating and trying to extrapolate, not "deciding". At least I am; I can't speak for any possible Popes posting in this thread under anonymous nicknames.

Though I tend to think of Satan's 'story' as being a linear one. Satan fell before the Garden was made, tempted Eve, tortured Job, teased Jesus, etc.

Satan fell at some point in time that it's hard to refer to.
Until the return of Jesus, Satan is the prince of this world, and time in this world is linear with respect to us now.

 

[Elrohir]

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I had a thought:

Since Heaven is outside of time, or exists in God's time (chronos/kairos), it would seem that Hell is so too, and thus Christ Jesus's possible descent into Hell may (have) include(d) invitations also for those who lived later, died without accepting Jesus, but would otherwise have been considered righteous.

Comments are welcome, as are theological condemnations of my cluelessness as being heretical. Flames against religion, drive-by or otherwise, are not. Use the poll for that. I'm not sure where I'm going with this myself; I just wanted some expansion on it.

I disagree that Hell, or Heaven for that matter, are "outside time". Time there may not be the same as it is here, or it could affect things differently, but I am confident that both have internal time. I don't know how that relates to Earth time, or to the time of the other - that goes back to what King David said, that "A thousand years is like a day to the Lord". I think he was using hyperbole there to make the point that God is eternal, but the point stands.

God is eternal and unchanging - Heaven is not, and it stands to reason that Hell also is not unchanging. It can be said that what Christ did - dying on the cross, and going down into Hades - is an eternal act, transcending time and space, certainly, but that does not make time obsolete.

As for the rest of your post, I effectively agree. I believe everyone get's to make a choice in regards to Christ - in this life, or if they don't get that, in the next. This isn't really a strictly orthodox view - closer to the Catholic idea of how things work than the traditional Protestant - but I'm not one for following the crowd anyway.

And as far as people before Christ becoming saved goes, either they were saved by faith in the coming Messiah (As opposed to our faith in the Messiah who already has come) Or they were given that choice when Christ went down to Hades.