The Human Trait

[tao]

There have been many posts about whether religious is better than industrious, etc. I would like to argue for the "human" trait, which the player has in addition. Let me start at the beginning:

The djb3 OSG inspired me to try out the imperialism map and I started my own game:

• imperialism map
• emperor level
• Persians
• 8 Civs
• all other settings random

The game commenced nicely. I started on the northern continent with the Russians and was able keep their expansion pace. (As dojoboy and Txurce can confirm from djb2, I have a vice of leaving gaps in my empire, because I really like to go for good spots for my cities.) Going for iron working full speed, I discovered iron 2 tiles from Persepolis.
I researched towards Monarchy, because it is great to get out of despotism before entering the Golden Age, triggered by an immortal's victory.
The future looked bright; my immortals would wipe out Russia, paving the way to further glory. Not quite so.

• Immediately after starting to build the 1st of many immortals, the iron source was depleted. Ouch.
• I had 1 turn to research on polytheism, 3 gold in treasury, loosing 2gpt. Tight, but o.k. Now Russia extorted 3g from me. This immediately disbanded my temple in Susa. Ouch again.
• Some turns later, the Babylonians landed, and I discovered that Russia and especially Persia was way back in techs. 3rd ouch.

Taking inventory, I had

• my map
• polytheism
• 122g, +13gpt.

Now I traded hard for techs, maps, contacts (many rounds, don't even try to ask me about the steps) and got

• everybody's world map
• mathematics, writing, code of law, philosophy, map making, and horseback riding

I had 155g, but payed 7gpt to Babylon. I hope you all agree, that this level of trading is "The Human Trait" and cannot be done by the AI. And maybe (in fact, I'm sure) somebody will be able to deal even better.

If you are by now interested, I uploaded an (typo corrected; link now working) archive with starting position, begin and end of trading to the server.

Now I just have to survive until I can trade for iron.

 

[Txurce]

Trading is tedious, mainly because the game has a mediocre structure for it, but Tao's disciplined approach to trading offers a tremendous opportunity to a human player's productivity. I would still probably rather be an AI in terms of trading - they get so much, for such little effort - but since I'm stuck playing as a human, this approach is a great way to seriously whittle away their advantage in this area. Interestingly, the skill most required to do this is perseverance.

 

[Txurce]

Tao, I was looking for your starting-position upload, but the message i get is that it's not on the Uploads 3 server, and when I looked through it, I couldn't find it (your GOTM7 games are there). Could you send me a copy?

By the way, I've already played the existing imperialism game (the OSG), with one limitation: no settlements anywhere except my starting island. I launched my spaceship in 1735. Without giving away too much, it was easier than you might suspect.

 

[dojoboy]

I've not pursued the "Human Trait" to the extent tao has in regards to diplomacy and worker-assignments, but I have to agree completely. None of the traits are so powerful to overwhelm the "Human Trait." In the hands of a human, I do find the religious and industrious traits to be most effective, aka Egypt.

 

[heikeott]

The discussions about trading have been very helpful to me, and I have learned that the AI will often take less than its beginning offer if I play with it. Is the Advisor infallible? IE, is he ever wrong when he says "we're getting close to a deal here" or "I doubt they will accept this"?

Sometimes I wonder if the AI thinks *I* am stupid? It offers me only world map for the tech I just learned, but then later when I want to trade for the tech it just learned, it wants every last gp I have (1190) plus 35gpt plus my world map! I am slowly beginning to understand why the AI often will not trade me lux for lux, although it is still annoying when I ask what can I trade you for dyes and the answer is spices, plus incense, plus a tech advance.

It is sometimes a very cumbersome process to figure out what they will take for something if they keep asking for a tech advance and I am not willing to trade it at that time. I wish there were a way for me to say "no, that is not an option, but how about incense plus X amt of gold?" and have them fill in the X ...

Anyway, do you (or does anyone) know what causes the AI to be completely unwilling to trade you something? France has Nationalism, and apparently they are the only one that does for now. I have been trading with her all along, there have been no wars or broken deals of any kind, she is polite towards me, etc. But when I ask "What can I trade you for Nationalism?" her answer is some variation of "It can't be done." Any ideas??

Also, does anyone know if the AI values lump sum gold and gpt the same? IE, is 5gpt the same deal as 100 g lump sum? It is, or should be, but how does the AI value them?

One more question, what do YOU do when, at the beginning of a turn after you have just researched a tech, one of the AI civs pops up and wants to trade

world map <----> world map + new tech

My husband thinks I am going crazy because I talk to the computer, saying things like "Yeah right, Caesar, what kind of an idiot do you take me for?" Lately I have been making a counteroffer but that doesn't always work. For example I just discovered a new island that I don't think anyone else knows about yet, so I don't want to trade my world map until I have it settled, and I'm certainly not trading my new tech for their silly old map. However if I refuse to trade my relationship with that civ gets steadily worse, right? So what can I do to keep them happy until there is something I'm willing to trade?

 

[tao]

Originally posted by heikeott
Is the Advisor infallible? IE, is he ever wrong when he says "we're getting close to a deal here" or "I doubt they will accept this"?

I never realized him to be wrong...

Sometimes I wonder if the AI thinks *I* am stupid? It offers me only world map for the tech I just learned, but then later when I want to trade for the tech it just learned, it wants every last gp I have (1190) plus 35gpt plus my world map!

It's nothing wrong in the AI trying, you just shouldn't accept.

I am slowly beginning to understand why the AI often will not trade me lux for lux, although it is still annoying when I ask what can I trade you for dyes and the answer is spices, plus incense, plus a tech advance.

Everything is money. The AI "computes" the benefit of an additional tech. You can do a guess by toying with the luxury slider and see how much difference in surplus is caused by +-10% or 20%. If you make 100 gpt by reducing luxury slider by 10%, don't expect the AI to trade you a luxury for 20 gpt.

It is sometimes a very cumbersome process to figure out what they will take for something if they keep asking for a tech advance and I am not willing to trade it at that time. I wish there were a way for me to say "no, that is not an option, but how about incense plus X amt of gold?" and have them fill in the X ...

That is the only reason I often ask broke civs e.g. for music theory once I trade a tech advance to other civs.
You should make a counter offer. If I'm in doubt, whether I can afford something, I start by offering everything I have and see how the trade advisor advises. If even that is not enough, I don't have to continue bargaining. Otherwise, I start reducing my offer.

Anyway, do you (or does anyone) know what causes the AI to be completely unwilling to trade you something? France has Nationalism, and apparently they are the only one that does for now. I have been trading with her all along, there have been no wars or broken deals of any kind, she is polite towards me, etc. But when I ask "What can I trade you for Nationalism?" her answer is some variation of "It can't be done." Any ideas?

Techs are valued based on how few civs know it, the new wonders available with the tech, new units enabled, etc. This gives each tech a value in money. Details are somewhere on CFC. If your assets don't meet that number, "it can't be done".

Also, does anyone know if the AI values lump sum gold and gpt the same? IE, is 5gpt the same deal as 100 g lump sum? It is, or should be, but how does the AI value them?

1 gpt equals 19g, if you have a untained reputation.

One more question, what do YOU do when, at the beginning of a turn after you have just researched a tech, one of the AI civs pops up and wants to trade

world map <----> world map + new tech

I make a counter offer: tm <-->tm plus/minus some g if possible. Always make a counter offer! It improves your relations with the AIs.

Lately I have been making a counteroffer but that doesn't always work. For example I just discovered a new island that I don't think anyone else knows about yet, so I don't want to trade my world map until I have it settled, and I'm certainly not trading my new tech for their silly old map. However if I refuse to trade my relationship with that civ gets steadily worse, right? So what can I do to keep them happy until there is something I'm willing to trade?

Trade your tm; it does not include the world as you know it, only the territory of your cities.