The Impossible Walkthrough (PART II)

[Joxer]

You may have had bad luck with your attack rolls but amazing luck with the early wonder rush. I have a hard time being able to complete Stonehenge, Oracle, GW and Pyramids before someone grabs at least one of them.

You have proven your point about the super city and the long term benefits of settled GP.

 

[frob2900]

Again, thanks for the interesting read!

Like the above post comments, you're cutting it finely with the early wonder-rush and could have lost 1 or 2. Then again, as long as you get the pyramids, I suppose it's ok.

I was almost going to comment that four food resources and horses is still a pretty darn good starting location, but then I noticed you never hooked up the fish. Why wasn't the fish hooked up in e.g. the 1923 AD save? You had coastal cities, so why no workboat for Delhi?

You have my sympathies on those attack rolls. Losses at 98% sometimes almost make me feel like shaking and screaming at my computer monitor

Question: I imagine it does happen at times that you really get quite unlucky and lose a bunch of early wonders. How does this influence your strategy? Just keep on aiming for wonders, or do you spend the gold to fund war/expansion?

 

[aelf]

Now, can you do one on Emperor as Gandhi without Pyramids?

 

[obsolete]

Again, thanks for the interesting read!

Like the above post comments, you're cutting it finely with the early wonder-rush and could have lost 1 or 2. Then again, as long as you get the pyramids, I suppose it's ok.

I was almost going to comment that four food resources and horses is still a pretty darn good starting location, but then I noticed you never hooked up the fish. Why wasn't the fish hooked up in e.g. the 1923 AD save? You had coastal cities, so why no workboat for Delhi?

You have my sympathies on those attack rolls. Losses at 98% sometimes almost make me feel like shaking and screaming at my computer monitor

Question: I imagine it does happen at times that you really get quite unlucky and lose a bunch of early wonders. How does this influence your strategy? Just keep on aiming for wonders, or do you spend the gold to fund war/expansion?

Very unlikely we would have lost a wonder on Monarch. Immortal is another story though...

We chopped a bit on the GW, and we also used the whip just to be sure in some spots. I stalled the Stonehenge a bit, but that was on purpose. Oracle was still far ahead of its time, even though I stalled that one too a bit. And I made sure to not even think about trading alphabet or literature for that matter until we were 1 turn away from completing GL.

As for the fish... I had problems. Any cities early I had that were on a coast, were very poor production wise. And I'd have to snake work boats all around to my crappy capital location. But the problem gets worse because of all the wars. I'd have to snake more ships all around just to protect that one stupid friggen tile. In the end, it just wasn't really worth the time/resources/hassel.

Again, how ironic I have a super fortress 1 hex off from a coast, and yet I can't even put a lousy boat inside my own fat cross. I hate sea-sides, and this is just one of the many problems.

I had 3 ocean tiles, which could not give me any production, and I could not work those tiles with even so much as a lighthouse or even build a harbour. Also note that stupid lake which was almost as bad. That is 4 water tiles, giving no production, and very little food. That counts as 4 workshops I'm missing in the late stage of the game.

Workshop = 3-4 hammers a piece before modifiers. As you can see... I should have had even MORE power packed in the super-fortress.

Nothing I can do about that though... But firaxis really needs to fix this issue. Any water tiles within a fat-cross surely should be able to have a lighthouse and other things improve the tiles, despite having a single hex block off the sea.

BTW, if I lose a bunch of wonders... I end up getting a crapload of gold. Then I figure out the best way to put it to good use...

 

[frob2900]

Now, can you do one on Emperor as Gandhi without Pyramids?

As far as I could surmise from the discussions in the "UNREAL" thread, general agreement is that this strategy and pyramids are pretty much joined at the hip. Settling specialists is so much weaker without them.

Emperor with Gandhi would be interesting though.

 

[cabert]

Now here is a different game.
Not an exceptionnal win, but still a convincing win.

i see you used the GE's abilities well and didn't go into "settle settle settle" madness, .

What we can see in this game is
On the plus side,
- futurehermit's gandhi opening
- cavalry rush
On the minus side:
- bad understanding of power/capitulation mechanics (why didn't you wait until Shaka was ready to talk to you before crushing his army?)
- bad understanding of the management of your "sister city"
- bad use of artists (why didn't you settle him in your gold city or in the culture battling city, which may be the same?)

Only one thing impresses me : a win in 4 hours

 

[Random Oracle]

As far as I could surmise from the discussions in the "UNREAL" thread, general agreement is that this strategy and pyramids are pretty much joined at the hip. Settling specialists is so much weaker without them.

I don't think this is true. I'm currently playing as the Dutch on a Monarch archipelago map and had marble in Amsterdam's BFC so I figured I'd go wonder-crazy. Well, right after I axe-rushed Huyana (I like placing a few extra civs to make things interesting).

Since I didn't have stone, I didn't go for the pyramids at all initially, instead taking the Oracle and Metal Casting as the free tech. The thing that makes representation so awesome in the early game is not just the +3 per specialist but also the +3 happiness. I figured that if I'm going to be relying mainly on 1 uber-city, I would need to lift my happiness cap early, so I went to Monarchy as soon as possible. Since I didn't have hunting, I was able to spam warriors for military police which allowed me to keep growing my capital very quickly. Note that I did have 4 cities at this point, 2 from Huyana, which made producing the warriors quite practical while allowing my capital to build other things.

As for wonders, I built the Oracle like I said and then the Temple Of Artemis, the Great Library and the Colossus in my capital and the Great Lighthouse in the former Incan capital. Combined with Financial, this has made for a very good economy on a water map and I'm getting about 900 per turn on a sustainable 80% rate at 1060 AD. Roughly half of that is from my capital and this is without Representation. Incidentally, I did get the pyramids later as I found stone on a nearby island but haven't changed to Representation until now as the +10 happiness in my capital from military police was more useful.

Anyway, my point is that while the extra beakers from Representation are very useful, Monarchy can be even better for raising the happiness cap of your capital. And higher population means that the science rate might not be slower at all if you have commerce tiles to work and your production is higher if you work hammer-heavy tiles. In any case, Constitution is not that far away if you want to beeline for it, especially if you burn a great scientist or two for lightbulbing in the Liberalism race.

 

[frob2900]

Anyway, my point is that while the extra beakers from Representation are very useful, Monarchy can be even better for raising the happiness cap of your capital. And higher population means that the science rate might not be slower at all if you have commerce tiles to work

This is true, I can't argue that Hereditary isn't also good for large cities. However, I was merely pointing out that if you are going to settle specialists aggressively, then Representation is quite a big boost to your tech rate (rough out of my hat figure: ca 20-30%). It all depends on how many commerce squares you have of course.. but lacking cottages you are pretty much tied to gold/silver/gems or calendar resources, none of which were present in the current game.

Hereditary Rule has always been my favorite for cottage heavy empires with lots of cities, though.

 

[aelf]

I don't think this is true. I'm currently playing as the Dutch on a Monarch archipelago map and had marble in Amsterdam's BFC so I figured I'd go wonder-crazy. Well, right after I axe-rushed Huyana (I like placing a few extra civs to make things interesting).

Since I didn't have stone, I didn't go for the pyramids at all initially, instead taking the Oracle and Metal Casting as the free tech. The thing that makes representation so awesome in the early game is not just the +3 per specialist but also the +3 happiness. I figured that if I'm going to be relying mainly on 1 uber-city, I would need to lift my happiness cap early, so I went to Monarchy as soon as possible. Since I didn't have hunting, I was able to spam warriors for military police which allowed me to keep growing my capital very quickly. Note that I did have 4 cities at this point, 2 from Huyana, which made producing the warriors quite practical while allowing my capital to build other things.

As for wonders, I built the Oracle like I said and then the Temple Of Artemis, the Great Library and the Colossus in my capital and the Great Lighthouse in the former Incan capital. Combined with Financial, this has made for a very good economy on a water map and I'm getting about 900 per turn on a sustainable 80% rate at 1060 AD. Roughly half of that is from my capital and this is without Representation. Incidentally, I did get the pyramids later as I found stone on a nearby island but haven't changed to Representation until now as the +10 happiness in my capital from military police was more useful.

Anyway, my point is that while the extra beakers from Representation are very useful, Monarchy can be even better for raising the happiness cap of your capital. And higher population means that the science rate might not be slower at all if you have commerce tiles to work and your production is higher if you work hammer-heavy tiles. In any case, Constitution is not that far away if you want to beeline for it, especially if you burn a great scientist or two for lightbulbing in the Liberalism race.

You cottaged your capital, yes? And you were Financial.

Anyway, this game was quite a close one. Huayna was only a few turns away from obsolete.

 

[Random Oracle]

You cottaged your capital, yes? And you were Financial.

I didn't actually. Since it's an archipelago map, I figured production would be hard to come by so I didn't chop the forests which meant that I had no tiles to place any cottages. I'm getting about 100 per turn mostly from the sea and trade routes. But yes, financial accounts for 12 in Amsterdam.

 

[Random Oracle]

This is true, I can't argue that Hereditary isn't also good for large cities. However, I was merely pointing out that if you are going to settle specialists aggressively, then Representation is quite a big boost to your tech rate (rough out of my hat figure: ca 20-30%). It all depends on how many commerce squares you have of course.. but lacking cottages you are pretty much tied to gold/silver/gems or calendar resources, none of which were present in the current game.

Hereditary Rule has always been my favorite for cottage heavy empires with lots of cities, though.

That's true. I guess what I really took away from obsolete's games was that one giant city can be extremely helpful, especially when you get Bureaucracy and later Oxford University. Representation helps with getting that city to grow but it can be done with Hereditary Rule as well. For me the main reason of settling specialists like engineers and priests are the hammers which get boosted by Bureaucracy, a forge and Organized Religion, making the city an industrial powerhouse.

There is certainly great synergy in having a city that produces wonders, functions as a great person farm because of those wonders and settles quite a few of those great people as specialists to further boost the hammers and especially in the case of Representation, science. However, I think the city can still be able to provide enough science without the Pyramids so that a quick beeline to Constitution is possible if Representation is desired. In that case, burning a few great scientists in the Liberalism beeline might make sense.

 

[aelf]

I didn't actually. Since it's an archipelago map, I figured production would be hard to come by so I didn't chop the forests which meant that I had no tiles to place any cottages. I'm getting about 100 per turn mostly from the sea and trade routes. But yes, financial accounts for 12 in Amsterdam.

You had commerce from sea tiles while he had better specialists. Fair trade. And of course the two games had very different circumstances. Pyramids was important in getting obsolete where he was. If you had played a standard continents map, you would have needed it too or you would have been forced to lightbulb. obsolete himself did not settle every single GP here.

 

[Random Oracle]

You had commerce from sea tiles while he had better specialists. Fair trade. And of course the two games had very different circumstances. Pyramids was important in getting obsolete where he was. If you had played a standard continents map, you would have needed it too or you would have been forced to lightbulb. obsolete himself did not settle every single GP here.

I agree. I'm not so much trying to argue in favor of settling every specialists since I think using one priest for a shrine is helpful, as can be hurrying projects with engineers (I used one on Moai Statues to get my Heroic Epic city running). I normally lightbulb some techs with scientists in the Liberalism race as well, although I didn't need to do it in this game as my tech speed was so fast and my competitors were light years away.

What I am arguing for is the viability of a super-city that produces wonders and functions as a great person farm and science city at the same time. Personally, I still would get a few other cities running so they can produce military and continue to expand while the capital keeps the science going. I've tried this strategy in my last three games, and my tech rate has been insane compared to what I'm used to. This works just fine without the Industrial trait, but I probably would try some other tactic if I didn't have either stone or marble near the start.

 

[obsolete]

On the minus side:
- bad understanding of power/capitulation mechanics (why didn't you wait until Shaka was ready to talk to you before crushing his army?)

Each round I waited, was another round that I could run into big problems. With the insane cheap upgrades the AI gets here, in one turn I may suddenly be facing an entire stack of infantry instead of riflemen, etc. That is one risk that was going through my mind.

Also, Shaka is an aggressive leader, and always tend to not want to vassal until near the bitter end. I wasn't figuring he'd be happy to capit so easily while still having other cities left. I can never get an AI to vassal to me if my capital isnt on his continent, so I was shocked to see he'd still capit to Frederik.

It just so happened in this game, Frederik wasn't doing a FAKE-WAR, and instead did land with a real army... that's just our luck.

I've had many times where even with 100 to 1 army ratio against shaka he wouldn't commit until he was stuck with only his tiny capital.

And of course, in the odd case he were to do a friendly vassal agreement to Huayna this turn or the next to get us off his back, at LEAST I'd be able to remove one decent sized city away from his empire, GUARANTEED.

- bad understanding of the management of your "sister city"

I KNEW I'd have problems with its growth etc. The problem was there wasn't ANY good sites at all down south for a city. I simply had to make a compromise, and wanted a land grab to ensure my copper on the fringe of my border would be protected. That's just luck of the terrain issues, and I can't really control it if I don't get food resources generated there. I was hoping to fix things better with CS, but still had other issues and priorities, etc.

- bad use of artists (why didn't you settle him in your gold city or in the culture battling city, which may be the same?)

Yes, the Gold-SE was having some culture problems. But I was debating on the time to fix that issue by taking out Huayna, or at least a city or two. However, I ended up changing plans and going vs Frederik/Shaka instead.

That great artist was going into my fortress because I had all commerce buildings in there too, but with less spoilage and Buaracracy 50% bonus, so that is sort of a no brainer; especially since rep gives +3b to the artist, and my fortress already had:

- library
- university
- observatory
- academy
- oxford
- laboratory (If I didn't have this one yet, it was coming for sure)

This was the primary issue. I couldn't care less about the CULTURE from the GA.

 

[futurehermit]

Well played game. However, of course, still a very high-production capital, which I would say is essential to the strategy (although not a bad thing of course!!!).

Getting a GE early and using him on the pyramids is of course a great strat. Is this strategy as powerful without the pyramids? Probably not

Also, although you are winning, you are winning in the 1900s. With some cottages and some lightbulbing, I am able to win consistently in the 1800s. So, is your strategy as efficient as other approaches? Maybe not. Maybe so. If you were to win convincingly in the 1800s then that would probably convince me.

All in all though you dispelled the necessary reliance on industrious leaders, which is good!

But I do believe a high-production capital is of course necessary as otherwise you aren't going to be building many wonders.

Still, a very nice strat and helping us to think outside the box!

 

[Phrederick]

Thanks for playing another game to respond to the various objections in the other threads. I wish you'd do it on Emperor next, but I know it takes a lot of time to play a game for posting. There's just one thing I'd like to debate

Nevertheless, one very well run city, is worth many smaller junk-cities (don’t let anyone fool you on this).

Why not have both? Build one city and run it the way you have, then build a second city, and use it and it alone to fuel an expansion. Granted, it'll be a lot harder to expand without the help of your capitol, but I think it would still be worth it.

 

[futurehermit]

Tried the strat again tonight. With Louis. Same settings as this game.

*Barely* got horses with culture. I think if you don't get horses you could be in for some trouble. Then you'd have to go for grens instead. Good, but certainly not as good as cav.

I also struggled a bit with my tech pace. I wasn't able to hit cav as early as I would've liked though I did get liberalism first and most of the wonders I wanted. I didn't get parthenon though cuz I didn't get my settler out soon enough. I also REALLY got cramped in by multiple civs and also lost a number of warriors early despite good odds. That put a real cramp in my early scouting (e.g., failed to reveal a patch of stone although it was in a very poor location anyways!)

I think with some more practice I could get things smoothed out a bit. I had a high-production start which of course is key to this strat. My opening tech path wasn't the best. I went ah early and I think I should've just gone myst-mining-masonry-bw instead. I had cows that i wanted to improve, but I also had floodplains and hills which would've sufficed.

I quit after getting the SoL ca. 1600AD. I was running into rifles with my cav after taking Brennus' capital and a couple other cities that were cramping my empire. However, he still had many cities and with him having rifling it was a stalemate for the time being. I think I probably could've won in the long run, but with copper nearby this game and a lot of close opponents cramping me, I think an axe-rush would've been significantly more effective.

 

[ABigCivFan]

Interesting game again. I see you used Gandi this time with faster GPs to help your strategy and a very good production capital.

However I still consider this an intermediate "simcity" approach at best. with just 1 or 2 cities, your empire is extremely vulnerable to unexpected AI invasions on higher levels. There is no chance your capital can produce all the wonders and adequate military protection at all.

Also note that you consistently trailed in scores for most of the game even just on Monarch. In my "unreal walkthrough" Emperor shadow game, I was leading all scores at 420AD with a very powerful 7 city empire. The difference is HUGE. The idea of the game is to grow an powerful empire while manage different aspects of the game: City management, empire Economy, diplo, trading and at higher levels MILITARY.

Your approach(spamming wonders in capital and NOT expanding) while fun for beginners, might only work 1% of the time on Emperor given a very good starting location and weak neighbor AIs. On Immortal+, it has no chance.

I am on business trip this whole week, will finish that game and post result by next week.

 

[Killroyan]

I don't care if it may not work all the time. I have to say I am simply impressed by his simple approach that appears to work. Well done obsolete. Keep them coming.

 

[cabert]

speaking about shaka

Each round I waited, was another round that I could run into big problems. With the insane cheap upgrades the AI gets here, in one turn I may suddenly be facing an entire stack of infantry instead of riflemen, etc. That is one risk that was going through my mind.

Also, Shaka is an aggressive leader, and always tend to not want to vassal until near the bitter end. I wasn't figuring he'd be happy to capit so easily while still having other cities left. I can never get an AI to vassal to me if my capital isnt on his continent, so I was shocked to see he'd still capit to Frederik.

It just so happened in this game, Frederik wasn't doing a FAKE-WAR, and instead did land with a real army... that's just our luck.

I've had many times where even with 100 to 1 army ratio against shaka he wouldn't commit until he was stuck with only his tiny capital.

And of course, in the odd case he were to do a friendly vassal agreement to Huayna this turn or the next to get us off his back, at LEAST I'd be able to remove one decent sized city away from his empire, GUARANTEED.

What are you talking about?
you had an army bigger than his just outside his capital (or am I mistaken?).
What triggered his vassalizing to germany is not the fact that fred send an army. It's the fact that you crushed his army.
If you had waited for him to talk to you before crushing it, it would have been your turn = you could have entered the diplo screen and checked for his willingness to capitulate.
In fact, I would have killed most units then opened the diplo screen after each unit killed = not taking away his power I could use against the next target.


about the sister city

I KNEW I'd have problems with its growth etc. The problem was there wasn't ANY good sites at all down south for a city. I simply had to make a compromise, and wanted a land grab to ensure my copper on the fringe of my border would be protected. That's just luck of the terrain issues, and I can't really control it if I don't get food resources generated there. I was hoping to fix things better with CS, but still had other issues and priorities, etc.

You should have chopped and irrigated the grassland forests. not brilliant food, but still better than what you had.
Other priorities for your workers? I don't think so, with just 2 cities.


about the unwanted GA

Yes, the Gold-SE was having some culture problems. But I was debating on the time to fix that issue by taking out Huayna, or at least a city or two. However, I ended up changing plans and going vs Frederik/Shaka instead.

That great artist was going into my fortress because I had all commerce buildings in there too, but with less spoilage and Buaracracy 50% bonus, so that is sort of a no brainer; especially since rep gives +3b to the artist, and my fortress already had:

- library
- university
- observatory
- academy
- oxford
- laboratory (If I didn't have this one yet, it was coming for sure)

This was the primary issue. I couldn't care less about the CULTURE from the GA.

You didn't care for culture, but you let the governor assign artists to fight it .
You have better gold modifiers (duh) in your wall street city than in your "superfortress", so settling the great artist there was a no brainer.