The Irrational AI and Pemawar

[bcaiko]

Hey folks -

So I played a game recently that didn't go so well (Japan, Emp., Huge Continents for those who care). I had an instance where I was on a surprise, defensive permawar with two AIs that ultimately ruined the game for me; the AIs wouldn't ever allow me to sue for peace, and it wrecked my economy.

Here's the cliff notes of what happened:

Spoiler :

* I (Japan) am on a continent with Venice, Poland, Iroquois, and France. France is so far south on the continent I barely know where they are. I'm on the northern end with Venice. Poland and the Iroquois are in the middle of the continent.

* I was in a situation where I unfortunately had to expand quicker than I would normally like. I founded a second city on a massive lake with flood plains to drive a desert folklore religion. A third city in the jungle snagged me Mt. Fuji. I was forced to found a fourth city near the Iroquois to claim the only source of Iron I could find (Japan w/no iron = ).

*Venice, Poland, and I were friends (though I was ready to reneg on a friendship renewal with Poland). France and I had a solid trading relationship, and they had no reason at all to dislike me. (I wasn't even anywhere near them, and they had to cross Polish, Iroquois, and a LOT of rough territory to get to me.) I was basically poking at the Iroquois all game (peacefully). I was allies with two Militaristic city-states, and had a steady stream of archers, spearmen, and swordsmen (later Samurai).

*Eventually, I notice a large French contingent heading my way. I thought maybe they were for Poland, the Iroquois or maybe even Venice. But, nope, they were for me. Napoleon declared I was "weak" and DOWed (note, I had the strongest army on the planet according to demographics). Not surprisingly, the Iroquois joined.

*I'd been heavily trading with and around France, all of which was wrecked by the DOW. Clearly I had made a mistake there. With both France and the Iroquois DOWing me, it was very, very tough to get new trade routes in; they just weren't available.

*After 10 turns of a wrecked economy, I recognized things were going south. I'd taken an burned down an Iroquois city and prevented the Iroquois from doing much of anything. France was on the border of my capital, ruining my trade opportunities, and I wasn't going to be able to deal with them completely until the Iroquois would stop sending raids to my south.

*I figured the Iroquois and France had made a pact, and couldn't make peace until 10 turns in. So I tried to ride it out. 15 turns later, neither party would give peace a chance. 20 turns later, same thing. I was bleeding cash. I had to disband units, and buildings. I would have given either Civ *something* to go away, but neither would give me anything but a "we have business to settle."

*Recognizing the game was unsalvageable, I let France take my capital and kept playing to see what would happen. He had bee-lined for my capital. Surely that was what he wanted. Peace now? Nope. Never peace with France. Never.

*I played out for several more turns to see how the AI would behave. I finally gave up at 130 in the morning, because the irrational AI wouldn't even acknowledge that I was willing to make a peace deal.

It was a little weird for France to bee-line for me like they did (especially since I had the most powerful military in the world, according to demographics), but I'm not mad about that. Post-BNW, though, where a Civ can't support itself without trading partners, the AI's tendency to randomly permawar is utterly irritating. This isn't the first time I've had it happen to me that an irrational AI won't accept "yes" as an answer (acknowledging that some of those times have been entirely my fault). But what the hell was France after here? I even let them take my capital as a test, and still no peace - what was the AI trying to accomplish? I had never done anything bad to France, was militarily strong, and yet they were utterly unwilling to walk away for any reason.

I would have given either warring Civ something good to go away, even a city (which they sure as heck weren't taking on their own until I let them). They had caught my economy with its pants down, and I was feeling the pain. But the AI wouldn't even consider peace. Not even the Iroquois as I started to press my advantage and make clear he was going to suffer a lot for DoWing me.

What makes the AI enter this state of permawar? Should this personality state even exist now that BNW forces you to expose your economy so much?

Like I said, not my best game. I made a couple of mistakes and it cost me. But I should have been able to recover from that. Instead, the game mechanics seemed to collude to make sure I couldn't. That's not any fun.

Your thoughts are welcome.

 

[Naokaukodem]

In vanilla I laugh when the AI asks me all my gold and resources for a peace deal. That's a kind of permawar, particularly when you play high difficulty level and don't have a plan.

I rage when i see an AI go through a whole bunch piece of land to reach me and declare, while they should have a lot more to do at their damn home, fighting with their too-close enemies for example. I've thought once it was human-centered, but i'm not really sure as they can do the same between themselves AIs. I suspect it to be a little human-centered still. When that happens I am very sour. I don't like when they insult me either, because I can't insult them back. (now that, is human centered) Any mean to make the AI feel its pain ? It feels so fair when it loses the whole game, when they have been so sour during it. Meh.

As to your problem, if you analyse yourself well, you said "Japan without iron = bad". So it means that you wanted to war early. This is maybe your behavior suiting this will that betrayed you. Like founding a city near iron. It's sad enough that the player can't know exactly what's in the AI's head.

 

[BenitoChavez]

My guess is that France and the Iroquois were friends and France didn't take too kindly to your permawar with the Iroquois. Once France wrecked your economy and you had to disband units, you probably didn't have a more powerful military than them, which made them less likely to make peace. Also I believe that there is some variability to the AIs personality, so they don't act the same each game. I probably just so happened you got an especially unreasonable France AI. Combine all those up and you get the result that you had.

What I would have tried to do is make peace with the Iroquois quickly. Take a city or two if necessary. Once you have peace you can deal with France 1v1, take out his army and rebuild your trade routes. Micromanage your cities to produce more gold and demand tributes from City States if necessary to keep your economy afloat. Easier said than done of course.

 

[Bulldog Bats]

One more reason I liked the war weariness in older versions. Perma-war was not possible. Just as in real life, when you continue in a war without a goal, your citizens get p$ssed off.

 

[adwcta]

You were aggressive. A stronger AI attacked you and solidified an alliance.

Seems like France did the reasonable thing here.

Also, AI doesn't take peace if they currently think they're going for a conquest victory, which Napoleon is prone to do, and you have no army.

Lessons: 1) if you are attacking a civ that is not a pariah, be prepared for war. 2) don't put all your trading into one bucket. 3) have allies. You can divert France's whole army if you can another civ to attack them once they start marching toward you, or even after they DOW. Give France a reason to pull back. But, to do that you need an aggressive ally. Diplo!

 

[Tiny Hands]

Maybe if this happens again, it would be worth seeing what types of diplo factors are affecting the AI's decisions. Maybe they were (super) concerned about how fast you were spreading, or you had a resource they wanted. Or they were the ones spreading too fast (as Hiawatha and Napoleon are wont), and they needed some good ol' lebensraum.

It doesn't have to be a rational decision, right? We're just looking for a predictor.

 

[bcaiko]

As to your problem, if you analyse yourself well, you said "Japan without iron = bad". So it means that you wanted to war early. This is maybe your behavior suiting this will that betrayed you.

Yeah, I did want a mid-game war once I got Samurai online. But I didn't start an early game war and I was pretty nice overall to my neighbors (remember, Venice and Poland both were happily my friends).

That's why I was being a nuisance to the Iroquois. And maybe that could explain why the Iroquois would permawar me (even though they were losing...badly). But...France?

My guess is that France and the Iroquois were friends and France didn't take too kindly to your permawar with the Iroquois.
...

What I would have tried to do is make peace with the Iroquois quickly. Take a city or two if necessary...

I wasn't at war with the Iroquois before France declared. They both DOWed at the same time. I actually did exactly what you suggest, I took multiple Iroquois cities and destroyed at least 12 Mohawks and a couple Knights to get him to back down. He didn't, and wouldn't even let me talk to him about peace.

You were aggressive. A stronger AI attacked you and solidified an alliance.

Not in this instance, no. France wasn't in a stronger position militarily (which I proved by soundly rebuffing both his and the Iroquois' simultaneous attacks on two different cities). And I hadn't started any wars before this war broke out, just starting doing things that I knew would irritate the Iroquois (but not France). I had the strongest military in the game, according to demographics, when they attacked.

The *only* reason the war went poorly for me was because they and the Iroquois positioned themselves in a way that made trade routes impossible for me. I doubt the AI took my flailing economy into consideration, but it certainly worked!

My issue isn't that France surprise DOWed me. It's that A) France wouldn't stop when I made it clear that he couldn't get what he wanted; B) France wouldn't stop when I was destroying his ally; and C) France wouldn't even stop when I eventually just let him take my capital. What the hell did he want? It's not rational behavior.

I guess I understand the Iroquois being try hards after I wasted two of their cities, but they weren't going to beat me either. At some point, the AI has to learn to take something nice and go away.

Also, AI doesn't take peace if they currently think they're going for a conquest victory, which Napoleon is prone to do, and you have no army.

So...why wouldn't he stop when I let him take my capital? If that's what France wanted, when he got it you'd think he'd be cool with peace. If he wanted another one of my cities, why not just ask for it in a peace deal? Instead I got stonewalled.

I had a large army even when I started disbanding units toward the end (mostly my workers). I had also massacred a good number of his units in the south by that point. And I had the superior units: I had Samurai and the best he had were swordsman.

I rage when i see an AI go through a whole bunch piece of land to reach me and declare, while they should have a lot more to do at their damn home, fighting with their too-close enemies for example.

Yeah, that's exactly what France did in this case. I was a little surprised. It looked like they were getting ready to pick a fight with Poland for a long while. I was surprised they didn't. Poland still had warriors for defense when I had just brought Samurai online.

 

[adwcta]

It's likely at this point France no longer cares about diplo with anyone besides the Iroquois. Or, at least he didn't care about your friends (did you have many?)

The AI warmonger can enter into take no prisoners mode. What, you never wiped out a civ before? Refused a peace treaty?

 

[reddishrecue]

Ais constantly make a double dow against a civilization that messes up and needs to be kept on check. Sometimes ais are so op that double or triple dows that other civilizations do on them doesn't work. Ais sometimes invite you also to make a double dow against another civilization too.

 

[GhostSalsa]

I had a game similar to this - I was Poland, settled aggressively leading to Japanese invasion and permanent war, ok fine - surprise DOW from Russia flipped 5 of my city state friends whose boats instantly killed my three IR shipping routes, 2 food ships, 5 work boats - even though I had a seven-ship navy of my own - ah, the joys of playing wide.

However I had made some weird culture choices during that play, including a straight honor opening - so at least I never had to worry about GPT (thanks Honor closer). What hurt worse than the lost gold and food was suddenly my Patronage policies were totally being wasted - I was at war with literally every CS on this hemisphere but one, who Russia magnanimusly conquered in a few more turns to get to me.

White peace with Russia after I conquered a city. Still, that was a loss. Too much international hate now; too far behind in tech to survive inevitable Russian bomber invasion later. Going wide just ruins games in BNW sometimes. Makes them fun before then though.

 

[LoneRebel]

Is it possible that both the France and Iroquois AIs actually considered your economy in their permawar, despite the fact that you were soundly defeating them in the field? That they were thinking something like, "Oh, he can keep killing our units, but if we keep this war up long enough, eventually he'll run out of money from lack of trade routes?" Nah...they can't have programmed the AI to do that, although (or because) it sounds like something a human player would do.

 

[Callonia]

Maybe the France and Iroquois just wanted to wipe you out?

 

[reddishrecue]

Is it possible that both the France and Iroquois AIs actually considered your economy in their permawar, despite the fact that you were soundly defeating them in the field? That they were thinking something like, "Oh, he can keep killing our units, but if we keep this war up long enough, eventually he'll run out of money from lack of trade routes?" Nah...they can't have programmed the AI to do that, although (or because) it sounds like something a human player would do.

If ai wanted to target economy, ai would simply make an embargo. The only way ai would make a dow is when you have all the city states which prevents the ai from making an embargo on you.

 

[lokithepunishr]

In my experience the AI gets super aggressive when you settle near a Natural Wonder, it's the same behaviour as a human player I guess, although it doesn't really explain France going for your capital

 

[VicRatlhead5199]

I'm curious, did you try to get Poland to help you? I know you said you weren't planning on renewing your DoF but in that situation you might as well keep them as friends and exploit the relationship. Casimir is usually pretty easy to bribe to war too.

I think the army strengths won't matter a whole lot once the war has already been started. It's how they decide whether or not to go to war but has less to do with peace deals. I think the way to get peace is to threaten his cities. Just moving troops into their land will help peace talks a lot. Might as well pillage everything while you're there.

 

[danaphanous]

I frequently get perma-wars.

The most common type is when I turn back the first wave of an aggressive civ like Iroquois,France, or Greece and take a city. They will refuse to talk to me for about 20 turns while they send wave after wave to attempt to retake the city. They only sue for peace when I'm threatening the capitol, Or after several unsuccessful rounds of this where I destroy most of their troops However, I've found with these guys (Iroquois especially) they are less likely to sue for peace after you take a few cities because they don't want you to keep them. They are even more belligerent if they have like-minded allies.

This is a perma-war when you are winning, however, when you are willing to give up some cities for peace and they won't talk to you that is a different kind of war. Usually this means for me that the civ thinks their military is way better than mine and can do better (such as severely cripple me or wipe me out entirely). Even if you are destroying a lot they can be building shock troops so fast that the fact that I'm destroying dozens isn't affecting the actual numbers or strength they percieve their army to be. Remember they're just looking at the numbers. Some civs take early war victories personally and don't want to stop until they've taken theirs back and at least one of yours (Iroquois in your case--I've found they always act this way). They might have capitulated if you destroyed the brunt of their army and had started to weaken the capitol--this is the the only case where I've seen it happen. if you can't afford to do this (aka can't absorb the happiness hit) try producing a lot of frigates/bombarding ships and pummel the main coast randomly attacking cities. They will percieve this as more of a threat bc you are "further in" and clogging up their troop resupply. I've gotten very warlike civs to beg for mercy doing this hit and run tactic bc they can't get any more troops to the front line--it's become a defensive war and it simulates a home-front dominance to them just as steadily taking cities and marching to the capitol would appear.