The jump up to Immortal

_Calyx

Warlord
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I'm a decent-ish player with no difficulty dominating on Emperor, but when playing Immortal I always feel weak - especially during the early game. I find that on Immortal I am paralyzed by options early - I want to build settlers, military for defense or early conquest, districts, get tech & civic boosts, fulfill city state quests, etc. but simply don't have enough time to do everything and the AI are way ahead in research, military, and number of cities.

I eventually do catch up most of the time, and go on to win sometimes - but I never feel like things are going particularly well...

Does anyone have general advice for winning consistently on Immortal? Things to focus on early? Good resources to check out to improve my gameplay?
 
The ai start with various bonuses on higher difficulties which mean they are ahead. But since the ai is poor at managment, it will fall behind players who do a better job here. Sending a delegation to the ai as soon as you meet them, open your borders to them when you get early empire will keep them happy for the most part. Also trade with them, sell your resources and diplomatic favor for gold to get your economy going.
 
a bit more info would probably help. what's your play style like? are you gunning for a specific win condition when the game starts, or do you decide after meeting the first few ai? if you end up losing, are you losing to AI science or conquest? how many cities do you have by t100? are you chopping at all and if so, when? that sort of thing. maybe just run us through a quick general gameplan?

AI management becomes pretty important on imm+ whereas on emp you can more or less ignore them. it's hard to say for sure what's going on without knowing more about your games but one of the biggest things for me was focusing more on early scouting, figuring out who you have next to you is super important and can easily make or break your game, not to mention the CS envoys/huts/etc. if you're playing peaceful for 50 turns only to realize you're sandwiched between two super aggressive AI who have already boxed you in...you're gonna have a bad time.

as for resources, watching streams can be pretty helpful, particularly the first 60 turns or so.
 
You have to survive the first 50 to 100 turns, use the right policies, have the right map.

The usual start is scout -> settler -> builder, but if you run into barbs or an early neighbour slinger -> warrior.

My 2 mos difficult games were against crazy Aztecs.

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Or this lol

AE174221DB3F4FE362B9A7FFF397A9978424871F


oqdv5q6i4orgo.png


The Aztecs are always crazy strong in Civ 6 lol.
 
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You have to survive the first 50 to 100 turns, use the right policies, have the right map.

The usual start is scout -> settler -> builder, but if you run into barbs or an early neighbour slinger -> warrior.

Strong disagree with the first suggestion for early build. On turn 1 you have no idea whether there will be an early rush against you, or barbarian with horses. In either of those cases (extremely likely on deity, and I imagine rather likely on Immortal too) you need to start with a slinger, and probably tech animal husbandry first to be closer to archery if necessary. The second build in most games will also be a slinger.

Other things to consider in the early game on deity (I think most of this will apply to immortal too):

- Early expansion must be fast: either early rush (archers + warriors or charitos can take cities before walls) or Magnus + colonization for faster settlers. Taking cities is always faster since the AI will have built some districts for you, but you can also win with peaceful expansion, just don´t despair if it takes a bit longer to catch up.
- The AI will be ahead of you in both science and culture per turn usually for at least the first 100 turns. Plan ahead to compensate for this by abusing eurekas and inspirations in the early game.
- The AI has no idea how to use the map, you do. Make sure this is noticeable: get the best possible adjacency for every district, settle on fresh water ideally, or coast whenever fresh water is not available, etc.
- Try to decide your victory type as soon as possible. Even the map you get before starting can influence this (fractal is more likely to give you semi-isolated starts that are good for religion, pangaea makes domination faster, etc.). Play accordingly, especially when planning which wonders you should build, since MANY wonders in this game are only useful for one victory type.

I explained some of these tips on this video, but there´s much more to consider. If you are having trouble with a specific situation (and/or victory type) mention it here, and we can give you more specific solutions.
 
a bit more info would probably help. what's your play style like? are you gunning for a specific win condition when the game starts, or do you decide after meeting the first few ai? if you end up losing, are you losing to AI science or conquest? how many cities do you have by t100? are you chopping at all and if so, when? that sort of thing. maybe just run us through a quick general gameplan?

Here is my general gameplan:
  • I usually start with a scout and then a builder, though depending on what I find I may go slinger first. After the builder, I'll usually build 1-3 slingers and then a settler. I run god king to hopefully snag the free settler pantheon as well (which for some reason the AI doesn't choose too often), and look to get up to 3 cities ASAP. This may change to more of a military focus if I have very near neighbors, but I've found that on Immortal my early attacks generally tend to fail.
  • I generally have a brief period here where I'm either building up military or building up my initial cities - getting a district and builders out. Once I have early empire, I focus on further expansion and try to have 8-10 cities by turn 100. I usually do some chopping / harvesting here, typically to remove features that are in the way of my planned districts but sometimes to speed along a wonder I really want or a unit/district I really need. I try to have Magnus in the city doing the chopping, but he can't be everywhere and I may forget to move him.
  • After turn 100, I usually focus on building up my cities. At this point the AI still seems to be ahead of me in tech, and they certainly have way stronger / more upgraded armies. However, I can defend myself, even if I can't realistically invade anyone, and I know I'm on my way to catching up. I may build a few more cities after this, but it isn't a priority.
  • After I feel my empire is established, I start looking at victory conditions (which is probably way later than I should be). By this time I probably have a handful of both campuses and theater districts to advance the tech trees faster, and I look at which AI players are still in the game and my civ bonuses and decide on a victory to pursue - usually either science or culture. I've found that focusing on religion really kills the rest of my early game, so I tend to avoid it almost entirely, and while conquest can be fun moving units all over the map is pretty tedious. I'll make sure to have the appropriate district in every city and try not to get too distracted on my way to the end game.
I always have trouble deciding exactly when to build districts and builders, and balancing those two concerns with expansion. I also have trouble with conquest until maybe the medieval or renaissance, and I sometimes have a ton of trouble with barbarians - in the game I'm currently playing I had a camp spawn two tiles away from my border; the skirmisher immediately saw my city and reported back to the camp, and within a few turns I was getting attacked by 4 swordsmen and 4 crossbowmen - two units I had never built (had no iron for swordsmen, and hadn't researched crossbows yet). Archers in cities eventually killed them, but this type of thing never happens on Emperor. The last difficulty I have is switching to a complete victory focus - I probably tend to do this too late, but I'm not sure how soon to do so.

I've attached a few saves from my current game (random / shuffle) with Poland. I'd appreciate feedback on the above general gameplan, as well on the specific game attached here if anyone has the time to look at the files - things like city placement, military, and districts would be great to get feedback on. I'm also curious if I'm doing well at 50 and 100 turns compared to benchmarks.

Thanks for all the advice so far!
 

Attachments

I usually start with a scout and then a builder, though depending on what I find I may go slinger first. After the builder, I'll usually build 1-3 slingers and then a settler. I run god king to hopefully snag the free settler pantheon as well (which for some reason the AI doesn't choose too often), and look to get up to 3 cities ASAP. This may change to more of a military focus if I have very near neighbors, but I've found that on Immortal my early attacks generally tend to fail.

this is solid as long as you're willing to risk an early rush/barb camp that sets you back. if I'm playing greedy i'm usually going scout > settler and hoping to pop a hut for a builder, with the dream start being scout > settler > settle directly on a lux > trade to AI and use the gold to buy another settler or maybe a builder if I've got more luxes i could sell. super risky though and very dependent upon terrain, most games I'd rather go slinger > slinger> settler or something like that. pantheon stuff all sounds good, 3 slingers is a good number for the machinery eureka

as for the early war thing it's definitely a big step up on imm. I usually just focus on stealing/pillaging/getting a good peace deal out of the AI. popping an early pantheon by pillaging for faith or getting a couple turns worth of science from an early campus can be super powerful, same with mines/etc. taking a city is a huge bonus if you can hold it, if not you can still flip it for most of the AI's gold then you've made a good chunk of change and seriously weakened a neighbor. also have to weigh your gains against the grievances though, especially if you want to sell diplo favor (incredibly powerful on imm and deity).

I generally have a brief period here where I'm either building up military or building up my initial cities - getting a district and builders out. Once I have early empire, I focus on further expansion and try to have 8-10 cities by turn 100. I usually do some chopping / harvesting here, typically to remove features that are in the way of my planned districts but sometimes to speed along a wonder I really want or a unit/district I really need. I try to have Magnus in the city doing the chopping, but he can't be everywhere and I may forget to move him.

10 cities is a good goal for 100 and i feel you on magnus. how many districts are you hard building? and are you placing them as soon as they're unlocked/city hits 4/7/10 etc? the combination of dropping districts ASAP to lock in the low production cost but not building them > chopping them in around t100 is absurdly strong. sounds like you could chop a lot more in general here, and which wonders are you rushing?

After I feel my empire is established, I start looking at victory conditions

yeah this is pretty much it right here. by t100 i aim to have my win condition district in every city with a building in it (library, ampi etc) and a secondary district in the majority to supplement. The vast, vast majority of those will be chopped in, exceptions might be a campus with really good adjacency, etc. I might pivot from culture > science if the last couple AI I meet are churning out 200 cpt, but other than that I'm just building toward what I've already set the groundwork for and assuming I'll outstrip the ai once everything comes online

the builder thing can be tricky, but i try to build as few as possible until I hit feudalism then I'm building them in waves across multiple cities. all those early builders are still escalating the cost and you can think of them as being nearly twice the cost of a later builder (and more than twice the cost with pyr + gov). for districts you can generally wait a lot longer than it seems like you should. no point in hard building them from t85-100 if you can just chop them in over 1-2 turns at 100. the interaction between chops accelerating with tech tree progress and district costs being locked when placed is huge there.

as for the barbs yeah, it can get obnoxious. I don't remember the numbers but there's a jump in the spawn rate on the higher difficulties that makes it really noticeable. fog busting with extra great people can help, if you're on science you should be saving most scientists to make sure you get the eurekas you want and on culture you probably have excess everything.

i don't have access to civ for a bit so i can't check out the files but if you want to throw some screen grabs up id be happy to take a look. hope that helps!
 
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i don't have access to civ for a bit so i can't check out the files but if you want to throw some screen grabs up id be happy to take a look. hope that helps!

Some screenshots along with an overview of where my game is at turns 50, 100, and 121 are below.

Spoiler Turn 50 :

Turn50.jpg


By turn 50, I have three cities. Each city either has produced or is producing a builder, and I have repelled two fairly large barbarian incursions (you can see some pillaged tiles near my capital). I'm about to get my first trade route, and am building the Great Bath because it was bypassed by the AI and that river has seriously flooded like 4 times already. How much am I wasting building this wonder? I have not yet started any district, though I have researched most basic resource technologies and I just finished Early Empire, currently working on State Workforce.

I feel like I'm doing OK here, but not great - I'm not focused, and none of my cities are particularly productive.


Spoiler Turn 100 :

Turn100_1.jpg

Turn100_2.jpg


By turn 100, I have 9 cities with some of them being pretty decent. I have two campuses and two commercial hubs, and am building a theater square, harbor, and holy site. I also have the government plaza placed to lock in the cost. However, only one of those districts has a building - the polish unique market is in the commercial hub of my capital. All of these are being hard built, though I think some of them at least will benefit from the clearing of rainforests fairly soon. I'm building the Temple of Artemis - which should net me +10 amenities - as well as the Pyramids, which is a wonder that I love. At this point I'm done expanding (except maybe later via conquest) I was hoping to put a city to the south east of Kandy (as my fifth city, where the Ik-Kil natural wonder is) but Japan beat me there by a few turns.

My military is weak, but I'm more or less middle of the road in terms of science and culture per turn and have strong gpt. I'm currently researching feudalism, which I should get just before the Pyramids finish and then will mass produce workers. I'm also going for dams in the tech tree, as I really love setting up very productive industrial zones. I haven't done much chopping.



the builder thing can be tricky, but i try to build as few as possible until I hit feudalism then I'm building them in waves across multiple cities. all those early builders are still escalating the cost and you can think of them as being nearly twice the cost of a later builder (and more than twice the cost with pyr + gov). for districts you can generally wait a lot longer than it seems like you should. no point in hard building them from t85-100 if you can just chop them in over 1-2 turns at 100. the interaction between chops accelerating with tech tree progress and district costs being locked when placed is huge there.

When / what to chop is pretty difficult for me - is chopping really worth the loss of those yields - i.e. from forests with saw mills - for the rest of the game? And how do you play without roughly 1 builder per city early - aren't your cities painfully low in production? A builder is usually the first thing I produce in a new city.

yeah this is pretty much it right here. by t100 i aim to have my win condition district in every city with a building in it (library, ampi etc) and a secondary district in the majority to supplement. The vast, vast majority of those will be chopped in, exceptions might be a campus with really good adjacency, etc. I might pivot from culture > science if the last couple AI I meet are churning out 200 cpt, but other than that I'm just building toward what I've already set the groundwork for and assuming I'll outstrip the ai once everything comes online

This seems almost inconceivable to me - I'll maybe replay the game and try to get that set up, and I can imagine it being the case for a few of my better cities - but certainly not all 9. I think typically all my districts are hard-built, and while I try to remember to place them early to lock in the price this happens probably less than half the time. And then I noticed - when putting in the above images - that I tend not to be quick to actually put buildings in them (except markets).

Thanks for all your help so far, hopefully with the screen shots and more in depth description you can get a better idea of what my game looks like.
 
yeah that's super helpful, thanks. the great bath definitely murdered that early game, could have had multiple settlers instead (with early emp) which would be far, far better. temple is better than bath but still not very good outside of niche uses, if you wanted amenities you could have built the coli instead (comes later and more expensive but you'd just chop it anyway) which would have ramped your culture and pretty much covered your empire amenities on its own depending on overlap. pyramids are amazing though, definitely a good build.

you've got two much bigger issues though, first being culture. it looks like you don't have any monuments down by t50? at that point you should really have 3-5x that amount of culture. the next time you play, try hard building a monument first in every expansion city instead of a builder. political philosophy is a massive power spike that should really be coming t60 on the later end, more commonly in the early 50s and possibly as early as the low 30s depending on the game/culture CS available. if you can hit all the inspirations + build monuments you should be able to hit 55ish consistently regardless of the map. Ditto feudalism--that really ought to be in place by T80, preferably early 70s, and it looks like you won't get it until T106. it's hard to overstate how important early culture is for every win condition, honestly.

the other big problem is city growth, which is preventing you from slamming early districts (and thereby increasing their cost). coastal cities are amazing with harbors and lighthouses, but the loss of housing from 0 freshwater means that they can be hard to get off the ground. that's really hurting you here--nearly half of your cities are basically dead in the water (1,2,2 pop, plus a 3 pop that will take 16 turns before you can place another district) and one of them (wroclaw) isn't growing at all. the map obviously had a lot to do with that--it wasn't like you had many freshwater options. but if you do get boxed into those kinds of locations in the future, you really want to either get a granary as soon as possible (maybe even by buying it) or preferably rushing the harbor > lighthouse to get it rolling, then send the trader out for food/hammers. It seems like in general you're overvaluing stronger tiles when you ought to be thinking more about working a larger number of them.

here are two T100 shots for comparison, i'll try to post some more applicable ones later when I have my computer, only have these because i already posted them in another thread. the first is a good start to a pericles game, the second is a super ridiculous start to a kupe game. both of these are wildly better than the map you got stuck with so the numbers are besides the point but the populations/growth rates are what's important. 4 is just a really important number to hit early for that cheap second district.
Spoiler T100Kupe :
T100snap.png
kupe100high.png


as for the chopping thing, it's mostly a question of speed. if your game is taking 300+ turns, that might be long enough for a lumber mill to be worth keeping around. but if I'm aiming for a T200 science win I'd much rather have 150 instant production at T100 via chopping (w/ magnus) which could easily represent 50 turns of LM production depending on the tile. plus i can just work other tiles to make up the difference/slam a farm, whatever. disregard the kupe game here obviously because chopping really doesn't apply the same way.

as for the early city production bit mine are still pretty decent because the growth rate compensates for the crappier tiles. You can see in that pericles shot that I'm still improving the best tiles (luxes, mines, strategics) but a good number are unimproved. it's also way less of a concern for me early on because so much of the production (like districts and buildings) is either being discounted or is being supplemented with chops anyway, and if I can expand fast enough and place those districts early i don't really need all that much production. plus my builders are popping with 5+ charges a full 30+ turns before yours are, so any ground you gained with early improvements via builder spam gets made up really fast. and by then the improvements are worth more anyway--you might have 2x the number of mines, but if yours are giving +1 production and mine are giving +3 thanks to tech progress you're still falling behind.

and yeah, it's super common that you won't have all your stuff built by t100, it's just nice even number to aim for. you can see in that peri shot that i still have some new low pop cities at t100 and even a pair of settlers, so not a hard and fast rule. you could even decide that you'd rather wait for the chops to become more valuable and start chopping at t110 or t120, anything later than that though and you're really hurting yourself by delaying your snowball.

big picture for your next game, just focus on expanding early instead of building wonders, try to place more of those districts right away, build monuments instead of builders first, and try to keep your housing cap from slowing down your growth. that should help a ton regardless of what you do with chopping. it also might be a good idea to just pick a win condition on T1 and stick with it regardless of how the game turns out. not always ideal but a good thing to practice.

hope that's helpful! lemme know if there's anything I didn't address/was unclear on.
 
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big picture for your next game, just focus on expanding early instead of building wonders, try to place more of those districts right away, build monuments instead of builders first, and try to keep your housing cap from slowing down your growth. that should help a ton regardless of what you do with chopping. it also might be a good idea to just pick a win condition on T1 and stick with it regardless of how the game turns out. not always ideal but a good thing to practice.

I implemented your advice, and I think it really helped out. Started a new random game and got the Cree. I only built 2-3 builders total before reaching feudalism, and I made sure to pre-place as many districts as I could. The gameplan was somewhat interrupted because I started alarmingly close to the Inca, but they very generously built 2 settlers for me which helped out a lot. I also captured their two cities with an army of 3-4 archers, a warrior, and two of the Cree unique scouts. However, taking their capital took a really long time - they had Victor in the city and could build chariots every 2 turns. A lot of my early production was focused on this war.

While I'm still not as developed as either of your screenshots, I feel like this game is going pretty well overall and has greatly improved thanks to your advice. Thanks!

Spoiler Turn 50 :

At turn 50, my science/culture is similar to the poland game. However, instead of the Great Baths, I will soon have the Inca - including the Great Baths that they built in Wanuku. I'm building monuments in my 2nd city and the city I captured from the Inca, and haven't really noticed the lack of builders so far.

Poundmaker_050.jpg



Spoiler Turn 100 :

By Turn 100, I've conquered the Inca and expanded to 9 cities (though I'll soon add three more). I'm still 3 turns away from Fuedalism, which is a bit disappointing, and my overall numbers aren't much better than in my Poland game (hit Fuedalism on turn 106 there, I believe). I'm going for science, and have a campus with a library built in my capital. I have a number of campuses and commercial hubs - as well as an entertainment district, going for the Colosseum - placed but not constructed; hard building one campus because there is nothing to chop around Qusqu.

Despite the topline numbers being the same as my Poland game, things really start to take off here around Turn 110, with builders completing all over the place and many districts getting built at once. Many turns after eliminating the Inca, Germany and India - despite being quite friendly with me - declared a military emergency which they spectacularly fail at. I'll end up taking Hamburg because of this.

Poundmaker_Turn100.jpg



Spoiler Turn 135 :

By Turn 135 I feel pretty established and that I will almost certainly go on to win this game. Some things are still ramping up, and this is probably pretty slow in some areas still, but my empire overall is quite good. All of my core cities have campuses with libraries, many have commercial districts as well. My secondary cities are constructing campuses. I managed to get the pyramids, and probably will get the Colosseum.

At this point I am leading (at least compared to the known AIs) in science and am a close second in culture. I feel like placing districts early and chopping really helped out here, and I didn't feel slowed down much at all without early builders.

Poundmaker_135.jpg

 
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Strange. I found the jump from Emperor to Immortal to be trivial.

The AI gets only tiny new bonuses relative to Emperor and actually suffers heavily from the more intense barbarian attacks and not being able to attack city states as easily due to them starting with walls.

Surviving the early game with enough cities is indeed key to winning at Immortal... but this is no less the case for any difficulty from Emperor (yes, I get rushes on that level sometimes) to Deity.

I see some people recommending scouts and slingers... Personally I never build these units. Better to beef up your military in the case of a surprise attack. Maybe someone can explain the appeal of both these units to me, compared to warriors, because it kinda escapes me.

Any warriors you build will be swordsmen later, which become extremely powerful when boosted with Oligarchy's +4 strength bonus and (possibly) the dark age card for +5 strength (but no healing outside own territory).

Sorry, I'm kinda derailing the thread, so I made a split off thread: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/warriors-vs-scouts-vs-slingers-discussion.657984/
 
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