The Lanun - overpowered? If only the AI used pirate coves...

[lordrune]

I'm sure this has been discussed before - but I started a game as the Lanun, and I got lucky with my starting location (on a Tectonics map, with mostly default settings).
I found a coastal spot where I could place three pirate coves - and there were about six hills, mostly grassland, in the radius. Plus a couple of handy resources (gems, rice, silk).
No fish but they were nearby, so I'd get the health fairly easily anyway.

I was playing on prince - a setting where I sometimes struggle (although I've been getting better of late) - but by about turn 50, I knew that I had the game won.

The save's attached if anybody wants to see. The map script is Tectonics which I like because of its unpredictable nature - it just so happens that the Lanun arrived on a large peninsula, with space for about half a dozen cities, with almost a dozen or so pirate coves placed around. I've never ever dominated a Prince game so much.

Admittedly overpowered starts can always happen for any civ, and probably shouldn't be the benchmark. And perhaps this is a bit like people saying the Dutch in vanilla BTS are overpowered when they play on archipelago maps.

Perhaps a more direct concern is that I note the AI doesn't use pirate coves. To me the coves are about the fastest way to kickstart the Lanun economy. The AI does, as most of us have observed, play the Lanun reasonably well as it is. I imagine if it learnt how to use pirate coves, it would probably be an even more formidable opponent.

 

[Senethro]

I've always thought it odd how well CPU Falamar plays sometimes. What are his tech priorities?

 

[Grey Fox]

I've always thought it odd how well CPU Falamar plays sometimes. What are his tech priorities?

Maybe it is cause his trait combo is awesome? - Early happiness boost, less xp needed for promotions, +3 Health, faster settlers, cheaper granaries and harbors.

I think they go for sailing and trade early, but I am not sure.


In the hands of the human player, Lanun is probably in the #1 spot in Economic power at least. And Hannah is often not allowed in MP games as it is. I think Lanun (at least with Hannah) and Calabim (at least with Flauros) are the "no-way"-civs/leaders in MP today.

 

[Senethro]

I'd allow Lanun on any maptype that has everyone on one landmass. In playing to their strengths there they will give themselves a stringy empire that follows the coast. Not easily defensible.

Also, in the current game even Elven Champions are better than Boarding Parties. Didn't see that one coming.

 

[Grey Fox]

Well there is always Stygian Guards. And coastal cities can often have an improved defense with the help of a stationed Cultist.

 

[Iceciro]

I don't think it's that the Lanun/Calabim are so much overpowered as that every other civ needs to be that great in it's element. Balseraphs too, are pretty good/flavorful.

You can't sit here and tell me an Amurite-trained mage isn't totally comparable to mages from other civs - and doesn't look pretty unimpressive next to Keelyn's mage.
Every civ needs to be brought up to par with the Lanun/Calabim when they're in that civ's element - the Lanun/Calabim don't need nerfs.

 

[Methuselah]

Every civ needs to be brought up to par with the Lanun/Calabim when they're in that civ's element - the Lanun/Calabim don't need nerfs.

True, but it's easier to nerf a couple of civs than power up the rest.

 

[WarKirby]

I think it's the financial trait that's overpowered, not the race.

+1 on anything with 2 or more is ridiculous. I'm surprised FFH made no change to that.

 

[PotatoOverdose]

Lanun+Plenty of Ocean Tiles=Auto Win
Lanun+Landlock=meh, boring, no unique benefits, tactical disadvantage relative to other civs and their unique benefits

If you want to nerf or 'adjust' the Lanun by reducing their naval power, then bring up their landlocked power as well. As it is, they're an all or nothing civ depending on their start, which isn't a bad thing imo, seeing as the mod needs some of those.

 

[Senethro]

On high water maps they're certainly overpowered but on maps of 30% water or lower they simply have an interesting alternative economy. They're good for variety, along with Elven forest spam, Illians moving into tundra/desert and Sidar XP grinding.

 

[Honor]

True, but it's easier to nerf a couple of civs than power up the rest.

It is easier, but it is also boring.

 

[Black Attila]

Perhaps a more direct concern is that I note the AI doesn't use pirate coves. To me the coves are about the fastest way to kickstart the Lanun economy. The AI does, as most of us have observed, play the Lanun reasonably well as it is. I imagine if it learnt how to use pirate coves, it would probably be an even more formidable opponent.

I moved the +1 food off of the harbor and onto the cove and the AI loves to make the coves now.

 

[Ksi]

You said it yourself, you had a really good starting spot. Any civ with an ideal spot for themselves will be powerful.

 

[Monkeyfinger]

Tech priority for AI Lanun is early seafaring techs, then ironworking, then double back for the rest of the sea techs. It's pretty effective. And they do use pirate coves in my experience.

 

[Earthling]

Actually, WarKirby brings up perhaps the best point of the thread - I think financial is really, really powerful in FfH as well - commerce is harder to come by at the start and yeilds never get as high as they do in regular civ. It does seem overwhelming compared to some traits like defender... Ultimately I don't think removing/nerfing financial is the answer but it shouldn't be given to a civ which syncs up too well/becomes too powerful with the trait.

As far as the Lanun go - they're not overpowered on mostly land maps, which I'd think FfH should be mostly played on anyway - if not Erebus because of poor flavor starts at least lakes/highlands type maps.

 

[WarKirby]

I think financial would be fine if it gave 0.5 on plots with 2, instead of giving 1.

 

[Jules.lt]

Maybe not allow Hannah, though... Coves + Financial is definitely OP

 

[zup]

The relative boost to coves is pretty minimal. It's all the rest of the coast tiles that really counts. But I like my Lanun and Hannah as they are. Nerf-hammer is not a nice tool.

 

[Jamz]

You have to be really carefull comparing traits. Some traits are obviously better than others, but traits aren't meant to be balanced, insted you should ask yourself does this trait make this Civ overpowered?

Now if every Civ that has the finacial trait is overpowered because of this, then yes maybe it should get nerfed, i dont think this is the case with Financial.

 

[Jules.lt]

I think coves should take at least twice the time to upgrade (right now the wait is hardly noticeable).
They could maybe also cap at +2/+2/+3 rather than +2/+2/+4 but that's minor.