The Mazatl

[graywarden]

Testing a hotseat game this weekend with my lizard loving son, and it does appear that they are buffed too much. At about turn 125 (I am testing as the Doviello), we both have three cities.

The Mazatl science rate is still at 90% with a +5 to +10 gold per turn,
while the Doviello are at 60% with +1 gold per turn.

The Mazatl are able to manipulate their enviroment and max out the city population with very little downturn.

I would recommend at least a -25% science rate hit to slow them down a bit. I think it makes sense that they are able to be buffed from their enviroment, but this allows them to really advance fast in other ways as well. They have had three great people to my zero (without pacifism), and of course are able to jump on wonders faster, and build them faster because of their production buffs.

We will keep playing until the MAFs stop us, and I will upload the first full one when it occurs.

 

[Till]

The jungle growing is one of the few things the Mazatl have going for them. I agree that it makes building an economy easy, but this is balanced by the lack of religion, early/mid game heroes, and powerful world spell.

They don't have great military options (can't even build catapults!), so it's your own fault if you let them outtech you. Especially with the Doviello!

 

[graywarden]

The Mazatl/Doviello Test

Turn 140: 4 cities each

Mazatl @ 90% science/+7 gpt/21 units/city popultion total = 21/score 343

Doviello @ 30% science/-1 gpt/22 units/city population total = 10/score 186

two other known civs

Illians score 267

Kuriotates score 186

 

[graywarden]

The jungle growing is one of the few things the Mazatl have going for them. I agree that it makes building an economy easy, but this is balanced by the lack of religion, early/mid game heroes, and powerful world spell.

They don't have great military options (can't even build catapults!), so it's your own fault if you let them outtech you. Especially with the Doviello!

Till,

I have been tracking the Mazatl somewhat last few test/games and they have been consistantly outscoring other civs by as much as a two to one ratio, and not just in the early game. One test they were in the 1500s when the rest of the pack was in the 700s. It is not usually that extreme, but in the majority of cases they are tracking ahead of the pack by a good percentage.
So what you say may be so in the items you mentioned, but it appears their strong economy serves them VERY well, or at least in my tests so far.
Todays hot seat seems to be bearing that out as well.
I am not trying to take them out of competition, just reporting what I have been seeing on my end.....

 

[Till]

I must admit i've only ever had them in games, when i was playing as them on emperor, so i have no idea how the computer does with them. I'd image they suit the default playing style, though, and your tests seem to confirm this.

I'll run some test games myself and look forward to hear more about yours. (But as Doviello, you really ought to be marching towards the Mazatl capital instead of trying to outtech them )

 

[graywarden]

I must admit i've only ever had them in games, when i was playing as them on emperor, so i have no idea how the computer does with them. I'd image they suit the default playing style, though, and your tests seem to confirm this.

I'll run some test games myself and look forward to hear more about yours. (But as Doviello, you really ought to be marching towards the Mazatl capital instead of trying to outtech them )

Till,

haha if i knew where they were I would, and of course my son would be going, "yeah bring it on old man".... haha

but fortunately for him I dont know where he is yet.... haha

I am testing on Noble as usual, and I know my tundra slow start makes it look worse then what it might be if i was another civ, which is why i noted the other known civs in the last post report. Once i get to where i can start making markets (lizard boy has already discovered trade), then i will start picking up some steam. But it really isnt about how slow Doviello starts out as much as how fast the Mazatl can rocket out of the gate, and if they are not in a heavy war situation, how far they can keep it rolling.
I think that is really the gist of the issue here.

 

[graywarden]

Ironically the Mazatl Javelineer is using the Doviello Javelineer Icon.... they could use one of their own, when someone finds one for them......

 

[graywarden]

This is a multi-player bug we just noticed.

I am playing as the Doviello, but my city screen background is the Mazatl, and the Mazatl has the Doviello loaded in their city background screen.

Ok now the screens are correct........ hummmm....... wonder if it has anything to do with those mushrooms.......

 

[Till]

I just won my game. Looking back, i didn't do exceptionally well GDP/manufactored goods wise until the end game, where happiness and healthiness caps nearly vanish. Then my economy well and truly went off the charts, however.


A decrease of the jungle tile yield probably couldn't hurt.

 

[graywarden]

The Mazatl/Doviello Test

Turn 180: 5 cities each

Mazatl @ 80% science/+1 gpt/33 units/city popultion total = 27

Doviello @ 20% science/-0- gpt/29 units/city population total = 14

Mazatl score 654
Lanun score 496
Khazad score 410
Illians score 369
Elohim 305
Kuriotates 305
Bannor 287
Doviello 231

 

[Grimz101]

To be honest you're playing it wrong, Doviello is the epitome of early rushers with the Mazatl being the complete opposite, with heavy long term development, they don't even get catapults! You should be able to rape them and capture all those wonders.

If you want a fair game compare them to the Laun (the seafaring civilization)

 

[graywarden]

To be honest you're playing it wrong, Doviello is the epitome of early rushers with the Mazatl being the complete opposite, with heavy long term development, they don't even get catapults! You should be able to rape them and capture all those wonders.

If you want a fair game compare them to the Laun (the seafaring civilization)

you are quite right, the two civilizations are completely on opposite ends of the spectrum. the intention is NOT to compare the two. This is a HOT SEAT game, and I am able to make observations about both because of it. As noted in the first post on this thread and during other tests on other posts on other threads, I had been noticing a very strong pattern from the Mazatl.

I have seen comments by others on the extremely slow Doviello start from the last few tweaks, and this game score reflects those observations as well.

Also as noted previously, the two civs are on not even remotely close and its not a matter of direct competition between the two. I am able to report the two because those are the two human players in this particular hot seat game/test.

 

[a_civilian]

Militarily, the Mazatl are very weak and I'm not just talking about catapults. Catapults are a huge deal in the early-mid game, but they also have weak palace mana and terrible priests (you don't need more than one unit with dispel, and the other priest doesn't even have a spell - and they have no high priest). They have no military advantages and some serious disadvantages.

They have one leader and his traits are about as close to useless as you could get. Defensive is obvious, and spiritual is only as good as your disciple units (well almost - I'll admit the double production speed is nice given all their temples).

One of their economic advantages is the ability to get +1 production in every tile, except this only applies to tiles that already have jungle or forest - unlike the elves, they cannot plant jungles. A second advantage, the instant farms (which also give 1 commerce), suffers a similar problem.

Another potential economic advantage is the ability to assign more specialists prior to the specialist civics, but (lacking a Sidar-like mechanic or philosophical trait) they don't have a lot of incentive to actually assign them. The golden age length mechanic is such an incentive, but this doesn't become significant until later in the game when you should have access to a specialist civic anyway. Lost Lands used to provide another strong incentive (in fact, necessity) by severely damaging commerce while providing a lot of space for specialists. However, now it only does the former and is rarely worth using.

(That said, I've only played them twice and it's quite possible that I'm missing some things.)

 

[iffi]

The (only) one thing they are good at is the early rush. I've been exterminated by them as neighbours a few times recently (immornal level).

The rush comes before I have any possibility to get to Archers/Hunters/Axemen (as Elohim at least). Only way to defend could be to always start with a capitol on a hill. Even then, if I could fend them off, this war would slow my progress considerably.

I could try my own early rush at them, but with those Wold Packs against my puny Warriors I don't think it would do any good.

 

[graywarden]

Sephi,

While testing the Mazatl this weekend with my son, we came to the conclusion that the Mazatl Horseman needed some work. The graphic unit is more a beast then a mounted combat unit, so we took our cues from this. Hope no one has any objections to this liberty we took.

• Renamed the Unit - Saurion
• The stragegy file indicates a trained beast not mounted unit
• Prereq = Horseman Tech
• Prereq = Stable
• Horse Bonus is NOT required (they are a jungle born unit)
• I left the combat system alone as horseman default for the now
• No upgrades

This should give the Mazatl a small edge MILITARILY in response to some of the feedback on this thread, which should help once the economic/production is adjusted. Which I have left alone for your determination on that matter.

I am testing it now, and it seems to be working (my first unit modification at this level)

I intend to upload on an SVN revision later this evening. If anything needs to be modified, let me know before I do.

 

[graywarden]

Sephi,

Ok finally produced a Saurian (Mazatl Horseman), and guess what the graphic is different then the one I had earlier today in the test. This is a mounted unit, lizardman mounted on a dino, which was what we were expecting earlier......... hummm I copied the graphic art link directly from the original file, i must have triggered something else when creating the new unit file somehow.......

I will rename as Saurian Rider, and leave everything else as it was until I get confirmation or other feedback. (Still think it should be a jungle fed beastie, rather then a horse resource one, IMHO with the other factors in consideration posted below)

 

[Till]

I always use the Warelephant with Mazatl - they are good enough, don't need horses, don't clog up production queues, and look cool.

Your proposed unit would come in one tech later. Not having to spend money on upgrades would be helpful in the early game, but an early war is the last thing you want when you play Mazatl . Without catapults, taking cities is just too costly. For counterattacking, i prefer hunters/rangers since it's easy to level them up, and they get you elephants/spiders for free!

As potential improvements, i'd suggest to make the priests stronger. Maybe i just don't know how to use them right, but i found the Priests of Kalshekk to be utterly useless. Perhaps give them some free combat promotions or a base strength of six instead? I have to think about this.

As for how to nerf them, i'd take away the automatic farms and maybe make the workers even more expensive. This would make it even harder to get tiles into a workable condition, and make the effect of barb pillaging even more painful.

 

[a_civilian]

I guess my main complaint is this:

Given the defender trait; the lack of catapults; the lack of militaristic traits, useful mana for offensive combat, or any other sort of offensive advantage; and their economic weakness outside of jungle, I assume they are meant to turtle in a jungle corner through the early-mid game. This is fine - there is nothing wrong with having to turtle early on.

The problem arises when they have nothing to turtle for. Militarily, they have no midgame or late game advantages either. Economically, since the change to Lost Lands their economy, while above average, is not sufficiently impressive to make up for this military disadvantage. I'm not even sure I'd call their economy exceptional anymore - financial and Sacrifice the Weak can compare, while elves, of course, are superior. (It depends a lot on what kind of land they are served by the mapscript, however. This is a separate major problem in itself.)

The primary reason they remain weak through the midgame is the lack of religion. They technically have their own priests to substitute, but these priests are weak. The priest of Kalshekk doesn't even have a spell. The priest of Omorr casts dispel magic, a spell you very rarely need to cast, and when you do you only need one caster. This priest is about as useful as the Empyrean priest, and Empyrean is never used for its priests (rather for the hero and Sun II infantry). Their other religious units are the Wyvern Guardians, which cost as much as champions but are weaker and limited.

Other than that they are completely mediocre in the midgame. Below average palace mana combined with inability to conquer means their mages likely have to either use weak spells or not get any free promotions. (Admittedly Sun II is good, but not so much for conquest.) Their only advantage is a longbowman with +1 strength - only a marginal advantage conquest-wise given that longbowmen are not offensive units.

Late game they do not have high priests. Their archmages are weak because their mages were weak. Their sole advantage is the hero. I'll admit he's pretty impressive - superior to the other dragons with a smaller tech investment. However, in terms of spellcasting ability he's still inferior to a ritualist and a few adepts with rust (even the damage portion of acid tongue is resistible), and in terms of combat, well, he's just one unit.

 

[graywarden]

I always use the Warelephant with Mazatl - they are good enough, don't need horses, don't clog up production queues, and look cool.

Your proposed unit would come in one tech later. Not having to spend money on upgrades would be helpful in the early game, but an early war is the last thing you want when you play Mazatl . Without catapults, taking cities is just too costly. For counterattacking, i prefer hunters/rangers since it's easy to level them up, and they get you elephants/spiders for free!

Till,

this is not a NEW unit, this is an existing unit, that must have had a bug or two.
while testing yesterday and today, the unit was graphically displayed as a giant lizard (no rider), yet its title was the generic horseman. I assumed it was an unfinished unit to the module that is still currently under construction, so after some determination with my son (who happens to be very lizard friendly), we decided to update it.

Once I made the necessary file changes, i then reloaded, and whoa and behold now it was a properly mounted dino as was originally expected. I did modify it so that it did not require the horse resource, but otherwise it really isnt anything more then what it was.

The module as a whole is really still being tested, and there are a lot of things to be considered. I started this thread simply to state my observations. Anytime I see one civ that has a TREND, I tend to pay attention, because that is usually a good sign of something out of balance.

 

[graywarden]

Sephi,

I uploaded the updated Mazatl files late last evening, should be revision 157.

I forgot to mention they will break saves.