The Meat in the Sandwich

Strato

Warlord
Joined
Dec 11, 2004
Messages
163
Has anyone ever been stuck right in between two very powerful, warring nations? Its almost in titanic proportions. I'm in that situation right now. On my left, I have a very powerful Aztec civ that has benefitted from iron that was ehhh.... demanded from me. On my right, I have an incan civ, which the AI milked to the extreme with a very explosive start - a very large empire.

And then there is little ole me in the middle, who focused so much on expansion only now am I getting a decent amount of commerce into my city, and just starting to develop an army.

My questions are:

What are the chances the AI will spontaneously declare war on me, for just being there? I'm playing on regent difficulty. Neither civ has iron anymore, and I'm trying to push forward with chivalry so then I can have knights and flatten them, but that is still a while away yet. If they make a demand, and I refuse, well it won't be pretty. And until my army is developed so I can at least have a mobile defence, MPP's are out...

Honestly, things are a little tense right now, with armies moving all around my land. :eek: My bad.. I should have built up a strong army, but at least I got iron (x3) ;)
 
if they do i'd imagine it would near the end of their war, if not after it.
Try building up an army, or sign a MA with one of them

I've been stuck in a sandwich. More than once. I remember in the Napoleonic war Conquest, beingstuck between Spain and Austria, but they didn't attack. Nor did they any otehr time.
 
If you have 3 irons, just connect one. You will avoid having AI asking you for Iron.
Try to keep both AIs at war, build settler and expand in the empty spaces.
 
post a save, i would love to see this situation so we can further help ur problem
 
Choffy said:
If you have 3 irons, just connect one. You will avoid having AI asking you for Iron.
Try to keep both AIs at war, build settler and expand in the empty spaces.
Or, sell Iron to both sides for a nice juicy GPT deal. If either declares war on you, they're cut off from Iron and you can ally with the other against them.
 
Things have sadly quietened down between the Aztec and Inca. I refused to sell iron to the Inca because they are technologically advanced, and giving them iron meant knights, medieval infantry, which would have meant a "fair" war. I played the game a bit more after making the post, and now I'm at war with the Inca, while sort of partly siding with the Aztecs. I should stopped playing when I did, so I'm now going back to my earliest auto save. I have chivalry, so knights are the order of the day now. I'm looking at ammasing a large force, and leaving the trebuchets out. Spearmen vs knights means I'll take some losses, but a quick war is in order, and the Incan's are loving their horsemen right now. I need to hit quick before they get gunpowder and saltpeter.

As for offering a save, then you'll soon see that I've made things hard for myself, with a lot of undeveloped land still, and not too many workers. Right now, I'm not producing any, in case the AI slips through and takes a couple. I'll take it through a few more turns, then I'll add in the save, where I've gotten myself in a well representative position. My last actual save was done late last night when I made a lot of errors, so I'm going back to an earlier auto save now that my mind is a bit more focused.

:::EDIT::: Note to self - never play this game while tired again. I loaded up the game, and was shocked, yet reminded why I quit when I did last night. I had one city set to fall, another one that was vulnerable, all because I thinned out my defences too thinly. I tried to brace myself against the onslaught of horsemen, but lost my two cities. Time for a strategic peace treaty. Basically, I'm buying myself some time. This does mean that the Inca also has the option of bringing in iron (seeing as one city had access to iron). However, the good news is, the Aztecs stopped fighting someone else (English) and have diverted their forces back across my lands. I'll try and offer an RoP just so they can get to the Incan's faster.

Right now, it's imperative that I can quickly amass a strong force, and reclaim my two lost cities, then strike the enemy where it will hurt them, their capital and two specific cities that have access to spice and wine. Trust me, right now I'm mad :mad: but basically at myself for such a poor strategic decision. I will get revenge
 
Go after them and keep us informed. If you can load a saved game it would be great.
 
LLXerxes said:
I remember in the Napoleonic war Conquest, beingstuck between Spain and Austria, but they didn't attack. Nor did they any otehr time.

The exact same thing happened to me too! Except I think the Ottomans were also at war with the Spanish, so it was even crazier.
 
Ok then, I've uploaded my latest game. What progressed in the last turn was a lot. Trust me, if it doesn't rain, it pours. I contacted the Aztecs, and signed an RoP for some of my incense. No worries. Their turn comes around, and the guy attacked me. Ok then... so now I have this Aztec army about to come knocking on my back doorstep. Meanwhile, the Incan's are also starting to travel across my land to face the incoming Aztecs.

Poor old me in the middle yet again.

OK. I sat down on my way home from work, and thought about everything I did wrong in the game. This is a mental list I've done up in my head, of my progress through the years.

1. Failed to mature my cities. In the mad rush to expand, I never gave my cities much of a chance to build up any commerce buildings (marketplace, library) or establish much of a defence. I only had two hoplites guarding each city. Really, my core cities, which are actually in the middle, should have been producing more hoplites to form a solid defence in my outer cities, and just simply on the field.

2. Not enough workers. Common n00b mistake I guess :( As such, even though there is plenty of roads, and each city is connected, there is not much more land improvements.

3. Failing to mount a sizable offensive force. I had the iron and the horses, so why didn't I build a good army of horsemen and swordsmen so they'd be available when needed? This would have helped in the early stages of my war with the Inca.

4. Thinning out my defence. This was perhaps my biggest mistake. Rather than losing a city, I chose to try and defend with everything I had. Of course, that meant other cities were left vulnerable.

One thing I did right however was researching monarchy. If it wasn't for that, then I'd still be behind technologically. With the right trading however, I was able to jump up to being technologically "modern" Also, I was originally in republic, however WW was starting to hurt the empire, so monarchy was imposed to bring about order. Now however, I'll have to possible fall back from the tech game for a bit, and just focus on raising some hard cash to rush improvements.

The big dilemma however is, maybe I should start from scratch again. I know what mistakes I made (there could be others, but lets not go into city specific flaws) The big errors I listed are the ones I think that got me into this mess. I'm thinking of starting over, simply because if the Inca turn on me, it'll be tough fighting back, and I'll hardly be much of a world power. For now, I'll play it out (so expect an update soon). If anyone wants, I'll provide the map from 4000 BC, though I'll have to pull down another attachement to get it up (or people can just PM me with an email addy, and I'll send it on that way) Not sure yet.

EDIT::: And I just lost another city, this time to the Aztecs. Talk about demoralising. :cry: I need a break

Next Edit: I swear karma is coming back and biting me hard. Just as the two forces (Incan and Aztec) are about to fight things out, they sign for peace! Peace!!! No way! Arrrgh! :crazyeye: Only a few minor skirmishes between them, and then peace. The computer hates me.

Next update:::

How stupid can the AI get? I signed for a RoP with the incan civ so they can go across and take down the Aztecs. But the Aztecs and Inca are at peace now? Oh yeah, one of the cities the Incan's took had a source of iron, and I saw a worker building a road. So I asked the Incan's what they wanted to go back to war with the Aztecs? They ask for iron... No worries, I got nothing to lose now. Back to war they go - one turn later.

When both forces thinned out significantly, I signed peace with the Aztecs. This was necessary to the next step of my plans. With an RoP with the Incan's, I was able to slip into their territory with a good squad of nights and find a few select resources. Think priming for guerilla warfare.

While inside enemy lands, there was no ground defence, just city defence. Workers were swarming everywhere, so the war worked in my hands. Anyway, my army wasn't big enough for much of an offensive, but the pillaging pretty much hurt them a little. Now there's no strategic resources, luxuries are basically gone, and so they have to rebuild a few roads. Trouble is, I couldn't maintain any sort of offensive.

Right now though, I'm just sick of this paticular game. It lost that 'fun' appeal I'm going to try again, seeing as I've learnt so much about where I went wrong. It'll be the same, just going right back to 4000BC. I'm going to keep the save of where I'm at if I feel inspired to go back to the game, but I'll keep you all posted on the new game, seeing as things will be much the same - stuck between two aggressive, expansionist empires. Interesting times :)
 
In my new game, the fun factor returned. I'm trading with everyone, and even though I don't have a source of horses, I have something better - bargaining power :)

My cities are now growing well, and my economy is shaping up nicely. My trading with other empires has kept me constantly up with the leaders of the pack, and I just sold a source of iron to my old nemesis the Incan's for a 33GPT and 270 Gold lump sum. This was on top of a trade route (incense for spice) plus a 1 GPT also. It seems for now I'll have a good trading relationship with my ex nemesis. I also managed to have a more gradual expansion, and am still founding cities to fill in holes in my borders. However, I shant be letting my guard down, with a strong army also being built. There won't be knights because there are no horses, but I'm fast tracking myself for gunpowder so I'll at least be able to fight defensively, and setting up a city killing squad if needed. But for now, peace reigns supreme, and this is what I need.
 
I think I would make MPP's with both of them, oh and don't forget to sign an ROP with both of them too, so you can get quick help from your ally if one DOES declare war.
 
lol @ your game
I would have signed an alliance with the aztecs right away.
take down the big brute.
then after you cut down inca, grow some more, then declare on aztecs.
you have to learn to be more..."evil"..
 
Evil? I'm learning quickly. ;) I've actually been using the AI to wear each other down. I signed alliances with the Japanese, Aztecs, and I think the English to hurt the Incan's. Basically the Aztecs ended up taking most of the Incan army, opening the way for me to fight a minimal number of troops in the field.

I've been signing peace treaties on and off with the Incans... So basically, what I'd do is take a few of their cities, and then go to peace before WW hits real hard. Because Incan's are still fighting other civs, they have no choice to cut through my land. So then, at my choosing, I can tell them to get off my land, and they yet again declare war. Basically I repeat this process constantly. It gives the army a bit of a break to rally together, and restores some happiness.

Anyway, I should remove the save game I've put in this thread, because it was the old one. My newer game is actually a lot better, simply because I didn't try and expand too quickly which ended up causing more harm than it should.

Anyway, basically the way things are, the Aztecs are super strong now, and the Incan's are a shadow of their former selves. I'm thinking I'll need a big push, but in the end, they'll crumble under the sheer numbers of my 25 or so cannons and equal numbers of cavalry (plus some medieval inf to just get them out of my core cities). And all this is happening under democracy (science set to zero, so I'll be buying techs soon).

After I take out the Inca, I won't exactly be the meat in the sandwich, no one would have a reason to trek across my land unless it is to actually fight me. It sure makes border defence a whole lot easier.

The Aztecs are a tempting target, but I don't think it would be wise to go after them until I get modern artillery and I re-establish a very strong home defence (right now I'm relying mainly on city defence in case of sneak attack). I'd also have to switch into communism also because their size is vast, and army would be huge.
 
you dont have any lux, that you can offer away for money?
I never set my bar thingy at 0
I atleast put it at 40
 
why didnt you take japan and be nice to inca and aztec till you have built the new cities up that you took and have a bigger military ready? i'd do that if it was me.
 
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