The Mechanics of Overflow Inflation

[apocalypse105]

How come this is still in the game thats really awefull? it still looks like a beta game brave new world and we paid money for it?

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

tried again with Babylon on deity going for a sci vic. didnt get the peak beakers over 33k and it ran out of steam at Ecology. this was at t187. started it at t160 w/3 GS each bulbing for 1280 beakers. furthest tech i had was Architecture. i had 4 cities, 3 of which were built up (16, 15, 15 pop) and 1 was just to fill a gap from getting overrun. happiness was a growth issue. lots of trading partners with no lux dupes and i had only 3 lux with only one for multiples (cotton). i also lucked into a religion but only because Theodora wouldnt found one (weird). I was 5th with slim pickings but i got DF and had decent fpt but no GPs to spend it on from liberty. all my city spots were desert but so was half the map so Sweden got Petra with a whole 4 desert tiles to benefit from it. i think i want to try with tradition for better growth and later a faith bought GE. i also took freedom ideology for the ability to rush buy space parts but i got no where near those techs for it to matter.

i'd like to see how to get 100k+ out of this ASAP to get me to the space parts. 170bpt, 3 GS at 1280 a piece, and no Scholars in Residence didnt cut it for pre-t200 SV. but it would have for a dom vic (but not pre-t200) if i had planned for it. the map ended up a pain though. 1 tile bridge to 3 of the civs would have meant a path over the ocean for sure. if i'd had enough oil i could have gone planes, arty, and 1 or 2 ground units for capturing.

 

[Cromagnus]

Try the Maya. I just had a run where I got architecture on t125, bulbed 3 GS and peaked out at 38K beakers. Could have easily gotten Plastics by t140 but I was going for Combined Arms. With t140 plastics you'd have a fast science victory guaranteed, assuming you've been focusing on growth to that point. Alternatively, you could bulb 2 GS and go full tradition instead of liberty for extra growth and faith GE.

I don't think it's possible to hit satellites by t160 without Scholars In Residence. Maybe Ecology but I haven't tried. I think that ultimately limits science victory.

Also, are you not playing on Deity? You should have gotten way more free techs with a late bulb like that. Plus, by t160, scholars in residence should have passed.

Also, I don't think 100k overflow is achievable with 150 beakers/turn without Scholars in Residence, regardless of when you bulb. There are diminishing returns as the techs become more expensive. I think it peaks at somewhere around fifteen times the bulb amount. So if you want 100k beakers, you'll need to bulb closer to 7k. Which means you either need double the bpt you have, or you need double the number of GS.

By turn 160, it should be easy to achieve a bulb amount of 7k though. But you want to bulb a lot earlier than that, since it takes 50 turns to clear out the tech tree.

So, your best bet if you're not willing to wait for Scholars, is to bulb 4 GS on t130 with 200 bpt/turn. That should give you 7k. But 100k isn't enough to finish the tree. Still, it'll get you to the critical growth/science/production techs to then finish a science victory as usual.

 

[ravenmagus]

Try the Maya. I just had a run where I got architecture on t125, bulbed 3 GS and peaked out at 38K beakers. Could have easily gotten Plastics by t140 but I was going for Combined Arms. With t140 plastics you'd have a fast science victory guaranteed, assuming you've been focusing on growth to that point. Alternatively, you could bulb 2 GS and go full tradition instead of liberty for extra growth and faith GE.

Maybe try something silly like rushing archery->mathematics for TA and HG, normally it'd put you way behind schedule for NC but you can make that up later with the sick bulbs..

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

Try the Maya. I just had a run where I got architecture on t125, bulbed 3 GS and peaked out at 38K beakers. Could have easily gotten Plastics by t140 but I was going for Combined Arms. With t140 plastics you'd have a fast science victory guaranteed, assuming you've been focusing on growth to that point. Alternatively, you could bulb 2 GS and go full tradition instead of liberty for extra growth and faith GE.

I don't think it's possible to hit satellites by t160 without Scholars In Residence. Maybe Ecology but I haven't tried. I think that ultimately limits science victory.

Also, are you not playing on Deity? You should have gotten way more free techs with a late bulb like that. Plus, by t160, scholars in residence should have passed.

Also, I don't think 100k overflow is achievable with 150 beakers/turn without Scholars in Residence, regardless of when you bulb. There are diminishing returns as the techs become more expensive. I think it peaks at somewhere around fifteen times the bulb amount. So if you want 100k beakers, you'll need to bulb closer to 7k. Which means you either need double the bpt you have, or you need double the number of GS.

By turn 160, it should be easy to achieve a bulb amount of 7k though. But you want to bulb a lot earlier than that, since it takes 50 turns to clear out the tech tree.

So, your best bet if you're not willing to wait for Scholars, is to bulb 4 GS on t130 with 200 bpt/turn. That should give you 7k. But 100k isn't enough to finish the tree. Still, it'll get you to the critical growth/science/production techs to then finish a science victory as usual.

yes, deity was in my description. and some of these numbers aren't likely for me unless i get the best kind of start. architecture by t125 is generally beyond my abilities without some luck, even if i settled the free GS from Babs. plus id have to go on the offensive a lot more. i was playing passive in every one of these efforts, trying to keep wars off my back so i didnt spend too much on units (and turns went by quicker, hehe). maya will be next on the test list but im still trying to figure out what timing is good.

in Moriarte's video he had like 400+bpt in t160 or whatever and he had 3 GS for each about triple the value of mine. i know he made it in IGE but im curious what kind of game would have to be played to have 450bpt and still not be really ahead in techs with none of the lower ones. his cities were taller and also had all public schools worked but it meant not having observatories since you avoid water path. i have also been avoiding the sword path too, only getting to Bronze Working and no further. maybe I should try doing that. so far this has been fascinating.

 

[Cromagnus]

Well, architecture by t125 is somewhat aggressive, but 160 is pretty late. For even just a normal science victory you should have public schools by t150, which means architecture by like t130-t135ish.

If you get your cities up fast, and rush-buy your last library, you can have NC up by t80 or earlier, and then if you beeline Education, you can have Education by t100. The early libraries+NC is pretty critical IMHO. That will get you Architecture by t130 no problem. Since you can sometimes steal a tech in there somewhere, you could even get Architecture by t120. If you have a game where the AI is late to the Renaissance though, that really screws up this whole exploit. If every AI is at the Renaissance before t110 or so, then you have a lot of overflow to gain from teching up to the renaissance. Similarly if you wait for every AI to hit the industrial, you can build overflow all the way through the renaissance techs.

You can't really base anything on Moriarte's test run, since he used IGE, but 400+bpt on t160 is reasonable if you've been focusing on growth and have public schools. The way you avoid techs is simply beelining scientific theory. That'll avoid both the sailing and the bronzeworking line. To avoid getting pwned you just have to get Construction in there somewhere, and at some point Machinery.

But my point about the whole t160 thing is, if you're going to wait that long you could easily propose Scholars in Residence and have it in effect by then, which makes the whole thing much easier. Also, on that note, if you're going to wait that long, you should have a ton of GS saved up. Babylon earns GS 50% faster, meaning 9pts/turn, so you'll get the second one 22 turns after you put up universities, the third after 33 turns, and the 4th after 44 turns. This make the value of Liberty less for this exploit, because you're wasting the 200pt GS, meaning you have to wait 33 turns to get the third one. Either way though, you should be able to get Universities up by t110, which will get you 4 GS by t160. I'd take Tradition if I were you, for faith GE later, unless you're going for Domination.

But, again, if you're going to wait that long, you can have Scholars active, in which case you really only need 1 GS. The peak beaker overflow is about 8x greater with Scholars active... It makes more of a difference than anything else you could possibly do. You could even skip building public schools and 1 GS would be enough.

 

[Cromagnus]

The reason I suggest the Maya, FYI, is a) their UB gives great early science and guarantees a religion. b) their UA loses steam around t150, but up until that point, it's pretty awesome.

Even the Great Merchant (which I save for last) adds tremendous value... boom I'm allied with a CS and have a ton of gold to upgrade/buy units. The GE buys me a nice wonder, etc. etc. The only thing I can't stand is how weak atlatlists are... definitely get to Construction ASAP.

Babylon's bowmen are awesome though. Great for starting off an XB rush... they pwn barb camps.

 

[ravenmagus]

Haven't seen that, but that's priceless, haha

I actually had a lot of strange AI behavior in that game.

First there was Carthage, jumping on a mountain, taking damage and forting up on the mountain.

Then there was the UN host vote. I'd been buddies with Germany all game; I gave them the host of the WC earlier, stealing it from Denmark (I had no hope of getting it myself); he used it to vote in World Ideology Order for me, which was nice of him. Then it came time for the UN; Germany had the most votes at that point so I threw him my support again (because more green diplo modifiers why not, and he was going to win anyways)... and he randomly turns around and votes for me and I became UN Host.

And then near the end of the game, I finally got sick of Carthage's constant backstabs and attacked her with Germany. She warred with Germany over one of her cities; Germany took it from her and she attacked back and reclaimed it .... and liberated it for the Incas, a civ that she herself had annihilated nearly 200 turns ago.

 

[phillipwyllie]

You need to have Scholars in Residence passed for it really to work. If this is passed you only need to bulb 1 GS. Being way behind in tech helps even more as every tech you click is a multiplier. Also RA's have the annoying habit of spending your overflow in techs that might not be as efficient so don't have any running whilst you start.

 

[ravenmagus]

You need to have Scholars in Residence passed for it really to work. If this is passed you only need to bulb 1 GS. Being way behind in tech helps even more as every tech you click is a multiplier. Also RA's have the annoying habit of spending your overflow in techs that might not be as efficient so don't have any running whilst you start.

Does a RA cause you to spend the rest of your beakers immediately? It could be hilarious if you manage to get it to go off when you have enough overflow to research the tree, and get everything immediately instead of waiting 1/turn.

 

[phillipwyllie]

Yeah, it sticks the overflow in a tech for you. I doubt the overflow is multiplied when RA overflow is auto spent, the most techs I've gotten from RA overflow is 2. Which is prolly why the devs allowed overflow to be multiplied in the first place(they just forgot about GS bulbs).

 

[ravenmagus]

It would take some precise timing then, but you could easily shave off 20-30 turns then - if you get the RA to go off after you've gotten enough overflow beakers and are just waiting for the 1 tech/turn.

 

[Cromagnus]

Good question... that would actually be ideal, and not that hard to time. It takes a set number of turns to get through the overflow-increasing techs before you reach the ones that don't increase overflow. RA on like t110, start your bulb on t120, and get the last ten techs in one turn!

I'm pretty sure you only get one tech/turn with RAs though. It just pushes the overflow beakers into whichever tech you had next in your queue. So it shouldn't speed it up at all.

Right? Man, I should go reload my t92 education game, kick off some RAs, bulb on t100, boom, t122 artillery... Or maybe even T122 *plastics*.... HAHAHA.

 

[phillipwyllie]

If the tech the game spends the overflow on is not researched by anyone else you get no multiplier. RA's in the normal course of a game is essential, but when you're doing the exploit you don't want RA's. In fact you want to be as far behind in tech as humanly possibly whilst generating enough science for a decent GS bulb. Of course Scholars in Residence must be passed or it's not going to work very well. Stealing techs is another thing you don't want to do as the only tech you are allowed to steal may be Sailing.

Edit: I've just tired stealing a tech(optics) just as I've started the exploit and the overflow wasn't multiplied.

 

[ravenmagus]

Edit: I've just tired stealing a tech(optics) just as I've started the exploit and the overflow wasn't multiplied.

Tech stealing (and Oxford and any straight 'one free tech' deals) don't work with beaker count at all and that's why it won't increase overflow at all - the whole point of overflow is researching a tech while you have far more beakers for the tech than you need. RAs do give a set beaker amount so they'll probably work.

 

[Cromagnus]

Ok, played around with RAs, and determined the following: RA completion is handled separately, hence why you can get 2 (but not more) techs in one turn.

Even if you complete 3 RAS in one turn, you'll get only two techs.

But this is good! If you stagger your Research Agreements, each one shaves one turn off the exploit.

My first experiment with this (using an old save file) was extremely sub-optimal and I still hit t129 artillery. That's 350 AD for those keeping score.

Spoiler :

I screwed up 4 things that would have made this faster:

1) I didn't finish Liberty in time, so I could only bulb one GS. (I started my bulb on t114, and for that save file I had been trying to time the Liberty finisher for t120)

2) I had to take the t101 GS, which prevented me from getting a natural one.

3) I signed my RAs too early. I was still growing my overflow with cheap techs when my RAs went off. I got Physics and Steel from the RA completion instead of getting bonus beakers.
I should have planned to finish liberty by t100 and bulb both GS on t101. This would have worked better with the RA timing.

4) I should have staggered my RAs... one/turn for 6 turns, timed to go off when I ran out of cheap techs. This would have shaved 5 turns off!

I believe you can achieve t120(!!!) artillery with this, but that's the limit. After you start your bulb, you have to research 18 techs. (including Dynamite)

If you start on t101, that's t119, which is before your RAs go off unless you managed t85 Education. But you won't have enough beaker overflow if you start on t101 unless you bulb 3 GS, which is hard to get by then. (Although doable with t85 Education... but that's so ridiculously early unless you burn a GS, which is counterproductive)

Anyway, if you tech Education on t92, your first RA doesn't go off until T123. If you stagger them, the last of them (assuming 5) goes off on t127.

So, basically, the lower limit is about t120, varying from there to t130 depending.

So, there you have it: t12X Artillery for those warmongers out there.

If you're looking for later era techs, I think the best solution is to double-bulb, to get Printing Press by t100 with the first bulb, and bulb again after Scholars passes, on t130. Or hope to get lucky and have an AI discover everyone by t100, but that RARELY happens. You could put 7 Kamehameha's in the game on Archipelago maybe...

It might be possible to get Printing Press earlier than T100, but you'd have to do a really early NC (and have external trade routes) to get that much overflow that early. Maya and Babylon may be the only ones who can do it earlier. (With 2 GS to burn at once)

EDIT: Manipulating RAs this way would also give you Tanks on t140... so that's another good option. But, I think t120 artillery is the best use of the exploit for warmongering unless you wait for Scholars.

 

[ravenmagus]

If you're looking for later era techs, I think the best solution is to double-bulb, to get Printing Press by t100 with the first bulb, and bulb again after Scholars passes, on t130. Or hope to get lucky and have an AI discover everyone by t100, but that RARELY happens. You could put 7 Kamehameha's in the game on Archipelago maybe...

Does the AI even have Printing Press on t100, though? The AI is usually pretty good at exploring on Pangaea.

 

[Fallen_Kings]

Yeah, it sticks the overflow in a tech for you. I doubt the overflow is multiplied when RA overflow is auto spent, the most techs I've gotten from RA overflow is 2. Which is prolly why the devs allowed overflow to be multiplied in the first place(they just forgot about GS bulbs).

This exploit works EVEN WITHOUT GS.You can have enough initial beakers with RA-Or,even bpt.How about flying a spaceship without GS,RA and tech buildings?Won't that be crazy?

 

[Cromagnus]

The AI usually doesn't have Printing Press by t100, and sometimes they haven't all met each other. You can stack the maps with AIs that favor Diplomatic victory, and that will get you an earlier Printing Press sometimes, but it's no guarantee. That's why I was attempting to bulb it myself... to speed things up. If you can start the final snowball on t130 you finish the tech tree that many turns faster.

 

[casualplayer]

If you want someone to do your world scouting for you, just include Polynesia.

This is really disheartening. It's a structure of the game that not only encourages beelining, ignoring entire tech paths, but it also is more effective the higher the difficulty. You actually benefit the more the AI is ahead of you in tech so it turns the free techs gifted on higher difficulties to the AI into advantages for the player.

The two Civs that can acquire a Great Scientist significantly earlier than the others, Babylon and The Maya, are so advantaged by this that it is ridiculous. Beeline Civil Service then bulb into the Renaissance by Turn 100. That's early enough to possibly put your Oracle SP into Rationalism. I've done Pre-Turn 90 Education with each of these Civs because of this ridiculousness, a lead that the AI can't possibly overcome on any difficulty. Poland benefits a bit from blowing through 3-6 eras in a flash too. Game's done, might as well walk away.