The Most Effective World-Dominating Strategy: The Banker... learn how!

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Azik Blaze
Never underestimate the power of money. . . . For now, hope this will suffice in showing you how to peacefully invade the world and rule the world behind the scenes, Illuminati-style!.

There is no doubt that manipulating the international gold market, along with deft diplomatic shenanigans to keep your rivals at each other's throats, is a good idea. More often, direct manipulation and control of the resource markets would have a stronger effect. Other times a substantial gift might have the desired result. Or a renegotiated peace treaty requiring tribute.

I couldn't see using the strategy exactly like that very often, but it is just one more tool in the tool chest.

Here's an example of contracting a quick loan from a friendly ally at the onset of war.

http://www.zachriel.com/gotm5/1838ad.htm

 

[Civilotopia]

i would call this strat an opportunistic tactic - cause u need a large treasury for it to work. the basic concept is simple and well known but the way he gone about doing it is pretty clever if u ask me. gotta hand it to azik for daring to think different. oh and i think the loan rates are affected by your rep with that civ.

 

[anarres]

So I smell a DL or am I too suspicious?

 

[wilbill]

Azik, at the very least you've been providing some confusing information about your scheme.

on December 21 you said...

In that post you stated

"and a chunk of my income is made by loaning out gold to rich rivals"

which now turns out not to be the case. Other posts you've made certainly led people to believe that you were making a profit on the deals. In fact it appears you're actually enriching your rivals by paying them interest.
You'd have done yourself and everyone else a favor by clearly stating initially how your "strategy" words and that you're playing modded rules.
You haven't discovered "the most effective world-dominating strategy" - not even close. As Zachriel politely puts it, you've found "just one more tool in the tool chest".

 

[wilbill]

Originally posted by anarres
So I smell a DL or am I too suspicious?

DL???

edit: never mind, I got it

 

[Spike59]

I am not sure why people are ripping on Azik so much. He has come up with an intersting stratagy. I have not yet tried it, so I do not know if it would work, but I do intend on giving it a shot. It might be a waste of time an money, but I won't know until I try it. It seems to me that keeping two rivals preoccupied with wiping each other off the face of the planet is a good idea.

Also; I might not me that smart, so what is a "DL?"

 

[Grille]

Interesting strat, Azik!
The discussion about loan strategy seems to continue on this board, so...
And, yeah, people ripping on Azik or his strategy may open another thread (er, not for ripping).
I'm not so sure if this loan thing is something like an exploit but as you need tons of money to establish your bank, by now me thinks it's ok.
I've started a (stand.pangea,Iroquois,vanilla) monarch game. My opening sequence was a pity for some reasons. Therefor I tried to do this loan-thing:
And here are the rates, as requested:
I've got no rep hit, attitudes differ from furious to polite, no wars anywhere at the moment.
Attitudes don't seem to have a very large effect. I went to war with India, turning them from polite to furious. Even now they sign 5gpt-90g or 10gpt-180g (my best rate so far). Worst rate: Polite/cautious Aztecs sign 5gpt-98g or 10gpt-195g). I was very surprised by some civs signing up several deals at once like 5gpt-<100g during negotions but no single 10gpt-<200g deal. I thought that if their gpt limit was -let's say- 50g, I could grab this 50gpt by one deal. But I had to sign several (in example's case:10) 5gpt-deals untill I reached their limit.
The only change of gpt rate I saw so far: China(furious) signed 5gpt-93g initially, now they only need 92g with same attitude (China ROP-raped).
Overall, my problem is that I can't take advantage of wars (there aren't any now) and I have no idea how to get them into war. Signing MPPs and declaring war on very strong Aztecs (worst rate) would be too dangerous. Being everybody's banker, I don't sign MPPs but the others do and I have fears that they pick on me. BTW, India & China seem to be at the edge, but I can't say for sure that they sell buildings. Generally, world trade decreases. Now, some civs can't sell excess lux they used to trade (cash flows through my bank).

 

[wilbill]

Originally posted by Spike59
so what is a "DL?"

Double Login - a CFC no-no. I had to look it up

 

[Azik Blaze]

Grille - MPP's are a prelude to war, means the system is starting to take effect. The important thing right now for you is to keep your reputation up (as well as your defense-budget as a deterrant from the feared). Don't sign an MPP yourself and don't dare start a fight with anyone, for obvious reasons.

Just to clarify, you should get as much GPT for a loan as you can, no need to be generous! If your reputation stinks, lowering the interest rate won't help, you're better off giving them a seperate gift of gold (read Bamspeedy's "AI Attitude" article for more on this).

I'm glad you pointed out how other civs can't trade goods among each other. This is another huge effect of the world bank, and another reason why I call this a dominating strategy. I wish the skeptics would just try it instead of coming in here and ripping me.

 

[anarres]

Azik,

I think the reason you got negative responses is because you call this 'The Most Effective World- Dominating Strategy', which comes across as a little arrogant. Also, this statement is simply not true on the highest difficulties, and has yet to be proven on the lower difficulties (although almost any strategy can get a win on them).

Maybe if you put it forward as a useful strat, instead of the best way to play, you wouldn't have had so many negative responses.

You will find that controlling the AI's spare GPT is a strategy used by all the top players, includng giving GPT for free to encourage the AI's to research techs (when going for a quick tech race). Maybe this is another reason people aren't jumping up and down at being told that this is the way they should play to win.

 

[Hygro]

I think this is useful looking, and something to do for fun

I agree it's not the best world dominating strat, because for the most part, you have to be in a position where you will soon (or are) dominate(ing in the first place)

 

[Grille]

originally posted by Azik Blaze:
Just to clarify, you should get as much GPT for a loan as you can, no need to be generous! If your reputation stinks, lowering the interest rate won't help, you're better off giving them a seperate gift of gold (read Bamspeedy's "AI Attitude" article for more on this).

Of course, I did try to get highest loan rates and did grab all of ai's spare gpt.
And as already stated, there wasn't any spot on my reputation (you can't establish your bank with a rep hit). Wars I started were *honorable*. Offering a gift would only increase attitude, at the most. (I do know Bamspeedy's great article).

I wanted to point out that ai's attitude towards me *seems* not to have any large effect on loan rates.
Thus, offering a gift wouldn't increase future rates, I guess. At least I saw an ai turning from furious to polite and still got the same rate. (The same was true for the other case, turning from polite to furious).
Once, I did notice a change of rate, but I had no idea about the cause.

MPPs: Except me of course, everbody signed at least one , but nothing happened. I was getting kind of bored and signed one MPP. Imagine. I gave in.
Side note: I haven't had the intention to do a test on this strategy at game start and established the bank late.
After all, I support this statement:

by Zachriel:
I couldn't see using the strategy exactly like that very often, but it is just one more tool in the tool chest.

At least the loan strategy is very useful to unknot ai trading. If an ai always used to trade a certain resource you don't have to others, then you get finally the chance to ask for a deal to get it the peaceful way.

 

[Hygro]

I believe with a minor rep-hit, (as there are at least 2 degrees), you could still loan cash as they are doing the per turn payments, and you are giving the upfront cash, so if you break it, they gain, not you.

 

[Grille]

True, true. It's just not the best way to become a banker with a rep hit.

 

[wargasm23]

Originally posted by "T-hawk":

It boils down to this: Keep the AIs at war, take all their money, and you'll find yourself in the lead. We've known this for quite a long time. This is just a little trick to help maintain that state. Could be helpful, yes, but I'd hardly call it "The most effective world-dominating strategy".

Give Azik Blaze a break, this a impressive thread or none of you would have bothered to even post here.

I for one will try this strategy in my next game, maybe even my current game

let's give the person who created this thread a little bit more respect

 

[anarres]

Originally posted by Hygro
I believe with a minor rep-hit, (as there are at least 2 degrees), you could still loan cash as they are doing the per turn payments, and you are giving the upfront cash, so if you break it, they gain, not you.

It doesn't matter how bad your rep is, the AI will always offer you GPT for a lump sum. And why not, they can never lose out in cash terms.

 

[barron of ideas]

Often, well, sometimes, even though constant waring did not destroy cities, the transfer to another power knocks out the culture producting structures, and the city boundries drop to the area immediately around the city. If you have a high culture, and especially if the area is relatively close to your palace, you can use settlers in the spaces between the now reduced boundaries that suddenly have become neutral to settle, on say, rubber, or some other useful resource, or in a particularly fertile or well shielded area. You are then in a culture race with the city's new owner, but if you have more cash to rush culture buildings, you have a decent chance to take over the entire region. It will be densely settled, unless the cities flip to you and you then abandon them, or the city you settled, but when there is no other land to settle, or you need the resource and can't rely on trading to get it, it might we worth it.

You may not be able to rely on roads to get the benefits of resources "home", so harbors or airports may be helpful with this. Also assumes you are not going to be sneak attacked, or have the forces to punish the civ that "chose unwisely." I have observed neutral space opening up like this during wars, but have never been able to predict it happening to have settlers and defenders available to take advantage. If you can use "banking" to start wars where you want them, you could have settlers available at the right spots to take advantage.

 

[muppet]

Originally posted by Azik Blaze
You people are criticising even before you've tried the strategy for yourselves. So I will not discuss this any further until I get some intelligent and constructive feedback from people who have tried it.

OK. Without trying it exactly as stated, it's not a horrible strategy. However, if we replace gold with techs for the AI's payment of gold/turn, I have tried it. Either way, we are both getting gold/turn from the AI. The problems:

1. When the AI's slider is effected enough, it will get annoyed with your progress and its backwardness.
2. When annoyed enough, the AI just declares war, even hopeless ones, to get out of the gold/turn deal.

On emporer, I have had one AI swindle me out of more than 20,000 gold in one game through consecutive and hopeless war declarations just to get out of paying the crippling gold/turn.

When I trade tech to the AI for gold/turn:
1. I can research new ones anyways - it will become obsolete.
2. They will get the tech eventually whether or not I am the one that sells it to them for gold/turn.

When I give gold to the AI for gold/turn:
1. My gold is gone forever. Gold is not obsolete.
2. It gets my gold that it would NOT have gotten anyways, declares war, and does not pay the loan back.

I'm not suggesting it breaks all gold/turn deals, but if you push it too far, it is capable of declaring war just to break gold/turn deals. I'm just suggesting that it is not so easy to completely cripple the AI via gold/turn at higher levels. I feel that I am better off when it breaks a deal to get a free tech than say.... 5,000 gold from my coffers.

Edit: Given the choice between using my gold to do research and sell research that or to save gold to loan, I'd prefer getting the research done so that even when an AI breaks a deal, I still have my research.

 

[muppet]

AH! There is an application for this strategy.

There are times during the middle-late game when even at max research (4 turns) the player civ still accumulates more gold than can be used. Yes! In these situations, you can profit an extra bit from lending out the surplus gold! As Zachriel has already said, it certainly is an extra tool in the box.

 

[ToddMarshall]

1. When the AI's slider is effected enough, it will get annoyed with your progress and its backwardness.
2. When annoyed enough, the AI just declares war, even hopeless ones, to get out of the gold/turn deal.

This mostly applies to Emperor level or below, as I've never been able to completely drain the worlds ecconomy on Dieity .

One thing I've noticed in my games is when you slingshot ahead of a leading AI (ie. the one that had been the worlds tech broker) via something like a nationalisim slingshot followed by researching medicine/santiation first (since the AI ignore these in favor oc Communisim and Steam) and keep selling to that AI at first they will declare war on you at a VERY HIGH frequency. Even normally peaceful civs like France and India, and even if they stand totally no chance.

My speculation on this has allways been that when they suddenly go from swimming in money to running a defacit, they are forced to disband units to keep covering the cost of paying you (though we do know the AI CAN still keep paying gpt on earlier deals even if they have no money or cities left and no units other than a settlers and its transports carring them, I think this is an exception to the rule) which basically forces them to declare war to get out of the deal.

The typical pattern I see from this is sneak attack and sue for peace in just a few turns. A kind of "we really didn't wan't to go to war but felt we had no choice" kind of thing.

I'm not ceartian that is what goes on, but I do know that when you totally cripple an AI that had the clear ecconomic/tech lead and tons of gpt before, they react this way most of the time in my games.

That is one good reason to spead out who you sell @2nd to whenever possible unless you are trying to get somone to declare on you.