thadian
Kami of Awakened Dreamers
wow, thanks for the tip! Now i know there IS indeed a use for late-game settlers.
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Civilization 7 has been announced. For more info please check the forum here .
The most important tech: Flight
- Thread starter The Snug
- Start date
GooglyBoogly
Freakamongus
Sistine chapel doesn't expire at scimeth and monasteries still give thebonus. You just can't build any new.
I am sorry mysty, you are incorrect there. Any wonder-based religion bonuses cease to apply to monastaries when Sci method is discovered. While the monastaries will still produce their base culture of +2/+4 you will no longer get the juicy +5/+10! bonus of the sistine chapel. Not the AP/Spiral minnaret/Uni of Sankore bonuses. This is the main reason I will often delay sci method for as long as possible - getting railroad and sometimes even infantry (forgotten the tech name) first.
Catapults are good, but they are not game breaking. There is counter to it, it's called flanking. Thou it works much better in MP setting. Today i stopped my ally's capital from being razed by a force 2 and a half time his size because I flanked 15 catapults with 8 Horse Archers. The guy still attacked, but his catapults couldn't do enough collateral and he lost most of his army :/
thadian
Kami of Awakened Dreamers
and with replacable parts BEFORE rifling, your rifleman are axeman.
Thats ok though, because flight pounds them into being less than bears.
Thats ok though, because flight pounds them into being less than bears.
mboettcher
General
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2007
- Messages
- 524
Look flight is valuable but it is late game and to get the full effect of flight you need
a) time to build airports and an airforce which isn't cheap at that point
b)radio and even more time and production to build bombers,which could've been diverted to other units.
So yes flight is strong and changes warfare but it is not necessarily unfair because one has to have a large tech lead to make it unstoppable which is not only difficult to achieve but in any era its going to be powerful to have one.
a) time to build airports and an airforce which isn't cheap at that point
b)radio and even more time and production to build bombers,which could've been diverted to other units.
So yes flight is strong and changes warfare but it is not necessarily unfair because one has to have a large tech lead to make it unstoppable which is not only difficult to achieve but in any era its going to be powerful to have one.
Jerrymander
Epistemologist
Fighters are pretty cheap units when they come. Most of my cities can pop one out every 4 turns. Especially if I'm running US and pop a Golden Age.
thadian
Kami of Awakened Dreamers
late game? awwww, i am just getting started....
Flight is one of the biggest bang for the tech buck advances. You get an economic advance, a major mobility advance, and a powerful military advance, all in one technology. There are few other techs which give so much in one go.
But there are a few others -- construction, assembly line, railroad, for example -- which revolutionize how your empire performs. But Flight is one of the best of these, possibly the best.
Its effect is most pronounced on a map with many separate land masses or islands, and with an empire spread across them. Once you get Flight, your transports can practically retire, except as military invasion craft, as airlifts move the majority of your units around. The task of delivering missionaries, executives, and spies, which is tied to slow transports, suddenly becomes a matter of instant mobility, no delays (except to let the spies reach their final destination).
If you are using spies frequently, one of the biggest downsides is the turnaround time after a mission. Being able to teleport back to a frontier (or vassal) city saves a huge amount of time.
So even ignoring the military aspects, the airlifts alone are a big boon for any widespread civilization. Being able to deliver military units to defend any city, you are much better prepared to defend.
Assuming flight along with assembly line, your cities can be quite productive. Radio isn't that much farther along, so if you've waited for an advantage to begin warring, Flight definitely qualifies as a significant advantage. Using fighters plus airlifts to speed up your first war, then bombers to continue the process, you can truly pull off blitzkrieg wars.
Without Flight, it is much harder to do except against a weaker enemy. Flight lets you leverage the attack against an enemy who is roughly comparable to you in every other way. If key enemy resources are within air range, you can open a war by denying them access to key resources like oil and coal. Take those two resources out, and most enemies simply won't be able to replace losses effectively.
Much depends on playing style, but if you either felt like peaceful expansion for its own sake, or because you didn't think you had enough of an edge to conquer, Flight can trigger a change in aggression.
Too bad the AI doesn't quite feel that way about it. They do use it, and spies, to reduce your resources but I don't think they are quite as aggressive as a human can be.
Railroad is my next pick for a super-tech. Faster movement, always useful and it definitely changes how you manage your empire. Production boosts, never hurt and again a big gain. A nice defender, while not good for aggressive wars machine guns can negate a lot of threats cheaply. But the biggest effect is the Mining Inc corporation. Get it and exploit it, and even your small cities are productive, as well as moneymakers for your empire. While railroad doesn't give you an immediate tag-team powerup for war, it gets you ready for whichever warlike tech you do use (like Rifling).
But there are a few others -- construction, assembly line, railroad, for example -- which revolutionize how your empire performs. But Flight is one of the best of these, possibly the best.
Its effect is most pronounced on a map with many separate land masses or islands, and with an empire spread across them. Once you get Flight, your transports can practically retire, except as military invasion craft, as airlifts move the majority of your units around. The task of delivering missionaries, executives, and spies, which is tied to slow transports, suddenly becomes a matter of instant mobility, no delays (except to let the spies reach their final destination).
If you are using spies frequently, one of the biggest downsides is the turnaround time after a mission. Being able to teleport back to a frontier (or vassal) city saves a huge amount of time.
So even ignoring the military aspects, the airlifts alone are a big boon for any widespread civilization. Being able to deliver military units to defend any city, you are much better prepared to defend.
Assuming flight along with assembly line, your cities can be quite productive. Radio isn't that much farther along, so if you've waited for an advantage to begin warring, Flight definitely qualifies as a significant advantage. Using fighters plus airlifts to speed up your first war, then bombers to continue the process, you can truly pull off blitzkrieg wars.
Without Flight, it is much harder to do except against a weaker enemy. Flight lets you leverage the attack against an enemy who is roughly comparable to you in every other way. If key enemy resources are within air range, you can open a war by denying them access to key resources like oil and coal. Take those two resources out, and most enemies simply won't be able to replace losses effectively.
Much depends on playing style, but if you either felt like peaceful expansion for its own sake, or because you didn't think you had enough of an edge to conquer, Flight can trigger a change in aggression.
Too bad the AI doesn't quite feel that way about it. They do use it, and spies, to reduce your resources but I don't think they are quite as aggressive as a human can be.
Railroad is my next pick for a super-tech. Faster movement, always useful and it definitely changes how you manage your empire. Production boosts, never hurt and again a big gain. A nice defender, while not good for aggressive wars machine guns can negate a lot of threats cheaply. But the biggest effect is the Mining Inc corporation. Get it and exploit it, and even your small cities are productive, as well as moneymakers for your empire. While railroad doesn't give you an immediate tag-team powerup for war, it gets you ready for whichever warlike tech you do use (like Rifling).
thadian
Kami of Awakened Dreamers
Railroad is the other canidate in my opinion as well. I know you can win the game with a twink rush using bronze working, and i think several people have said you can win with rifiling. but i am looking at all of the things you get with the package. I have never had flight and then had a hard time building fighters. or airports, though the ports usually come first. i usually build one in my top 3 cities for airlifts and start massing airships/planes.
I thought about it and ALMOST decided physics was the key as one other poster suggested, as your bulk of planes will be promoted from airships. But Airships by themselves are less than impressive.
So then the questions ask why the game would go on this long - that the game could be over much sooner than this. There is one fair thing to compare flight to in a sense you early rushers can comprehend it. Imagine if in the begining of the game, you get a horse - the only one on your continent. Not only is it the only one, and next to your protected zone, but you just got the ability to produce a stable that gives you a trade route, and a free teleport into a city you just captured. Then to top it all off, your horses start with mobility.
Pretty nice, huh? I introduce you to flight.
I thought about it and ALMOST decided physics was the key as one other poster suggested, as your bulk of planes will be promoted from airships. But Airships by themselves are less than impressive.
So then the questions ask why the game would go on this long - that the game could be over much sooner than this. There is one fair thing to compare flight to in a sense you early rushers can comprehend it. Imagine if in the begining of the game, you get a horse - the only one on your continent. Not only is it the only one, and next to your protected zone, but you just got the ability to produce a stable that gives you a trade route, and a free teleport into a city you just captured. Then to top it all off, your horses start with mobility.
Pretty nice, huh? I introduce you to flight.
r_rolo1
King of myself
That is not a fair comparison, because of the beaker cost..... and OFC of the time. Even the 2 GPP of GW proffed to be unbalancing, either being GE or GSpy ones, just because they came early.
thadian
Kami of Awakened Dreamers
an exaggeration i admit - but getting a +1 trade route and a teleporter is almost better than the planes themselves is what im saying. Oh, the cost... ive never had a problem teching it. i usually prioritize it and all the techs near it cost the same anyway (roughly).
As for the build cost, by that time you should have enough production to build the planes without setting yourself back, or your already hopeless. If its that late-game that everyone is working on those kind of techs, you better have the ability to put up the ports and planes (perhaps in alternation while building troops?) or your already losing bad enough that you wont win even if you are first to it.
How good is rifiling if you can barely tech it and barely have the hammers to produce/promote enough riflemen by the time grenadiers come out?
Ergo, how good is bronze working when you have no copper? how about low yield production cities that can barely produce an army?
As for the build cost, by that time you should have enough production to build the planes without setting yourself back, or your already hopeless. If its that late-game that everyone is working on those kind of techs, you better have the ability to put up the ports and planes (perhaps in alternation while building troops?) or your already losing bad enough that you wont win even if you are first to it.
How good is rifiling if you can barely tech it and barely have the hammers to produce/promote enough riflemen by the time grenadiers come out?
Ergo, how good is bronze working when you have no copper? how about low yield production cities that can barely produce an army?
r_rolo1
King of myself
Drafting: 14 food = 165 hammers of rifles
Slavery + chopping. In fact there is a ongoing discussion in the strats forum exactly because of the fact that BW has this 3 features together, making it a no brainer choice of choosed tech to research in 90% of the times
thadian
Kami of Awakened Dreamers
see, your right - and by the time you get to flight, the ratio is about the same. i can build planes in about 3-5 turns (along with most other normal troops in that era) airports in 4-6 turns, and of course i can whip them. i havent used universal sufferage in quite a while, i use to just turn off my science meter and pay for them straight up.
r_rolo1
King of myself
Look, thadian, I never said that flight was not a possible gamebreaker if well used. But it is not the only one and in some aspects some, in their time, are far more strong .... my arguement in here has been exactly that. I know how damaging a well focused usage of the Flight enabled features can be to my foes 
Jerrymander
Epistemologist
You just better hope you have Oil.
thadian
Kami of Awakened Dreamers
got me there - i better also hope i have other resources as well if i play ancient like copper or stone
r_rolo1
King of myself
catapults + lbows don't need resources
thadian
Kami of Awakened Dreamers
r_rolo, i feel your one of the few seldom in opposition to this that really has good reasons to state - as such i will keep quiet on this thread so that others may discuss the topic - i think there is a lot of good information and comparisons here, and i also think i have contributed all i can, and i don't want this thread to be a flamefest.
Though we disagree - i think we both have valid points and at this time i will turn my attention to other threads that i may continue learning.
Though we disagree - i think we both have valid points and at this time i will turn my attention to other threads that i may continue learning.
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