The most important tech: Flight

[GooglyBoogly]

How good is rifiling if you can barely tech it and barely have the hammers to produce/promote enough riflemen by the time grenadiers come out?

Grenadiers only get a +50% attack bonus vs rifles. Rifles can still crush grenadiers on the defensive. Not to mention terrain bonuses/fortification can get you close to a 50% defensive boost to make your trades roughly even, and that is ignoring machineguns.

 

[Yxklyx]

Yes, this is an old thread but I found it extremely useful. Lately I've been bee-lining to Scientific Method so that I can get State Property up and running early. Well, Physics comes after Sci Method and I've found airships to be very useful (and even better when they later get upgraded to Fighters - a cheap upgrade BTW).

Before the AI gets some Anti-Aircraft units...

1. Air units take NO damage when performing an Air Strike
2. You can rebase them in one turn between any of your cities regardless of distance - allows you to build them anywhere and move them to the battle in one turn. Limit of 4 air units per city/fort though.
3. Air units will cause enough damage to tilt the odds in your favor. They're like siege weapons but take NO damage so you can use them over and over again.

Fighters do even more damage than Airships and can Bombard culture in cities as well as take out Improvements.

Airports are excellent buildings as well!

Flight rules!

 

[r_rolo1]

Well, I think that nobody in here discussed that flight was important or a good tech if properly leveraged. The point was that the OP said that flight was THE more important tech of the game, and that is highly debatable

Just a point, though:

MGs in BtS 3.17 can intercept air units. That pretty much nerfs airships as unit softners... not completely OFC, but it is nothing compared with 3.13 and earlier

 

[TigerBotHesh]

The problem with Flight is that the AI doesn't apply it effectively. Human players will spam airships (and later fighters and bombers) by the handfuls, while the computer will keep 1-2 around for defense. If the computer embraced flight units like it did catapults or artillery, it would be more effective.

 

[The Snug]

Well, I think that nobody in here discussed that flight was important or a good tech if properly leveraged. The point was that the OP said that flight was THE more important tech of the game, and that is highly debatable

Just a point, though:

MGs in BtS 3.17 can intercept air units. That pretty much nerfs airships as unit softners... not completely OFC, but it is nothing compared with 3.13 and earlier

Even with the new ability, MGs are not really all that effective against fighters. It's only a 25% interception chance, and they won't shoot down an undamaged fighter, only wound it. So, really, they only slow down fighters a little bit, rather than stop them.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Even with the new ability, MGs are not really all that effective against fighters. It's only a 25% interception chance, and they won't shoot down an undamaged fighter, only wound it. So, really, they only slow down fighters a little bit, rather than stop them.

Anti-tanks and SAMS with 5 xp can cause major headaches to fighters, since they intercept 50% and 70% of air respectively. They actually CAN shoot down aircraft, also. This does not completely remove the trouble caused by air but it makes air less cost effective.

Flight is certainly a great tech, capable of smearing anyone without it. However, what about assembly line? Artillery (unlocking excellent siege that unlike fighters can easily handle large stacks - the typical greatest problem when fighting the AI)? Combustion is arguably more important also on water maps but it's a flight pre-req anyway .

Still, if you get infantry, arty, and anti-tanks in a big stack you can literally hold every ground troop except gunships and modern armor off and take the CR II arty to anything in cities (or the big stack). Add one more tech (rocketry) and the gunships are not a big worry either. Modern armor is a long, long way from infantry/arty.

Mostly arty is doing the legwork there, and the infantry and anti-tanks are just cover. But, they are ridiculously effective cover, given that infantry counter every single thing that can attack them except other infantry and tanks (machine guns can't attack) and anti-tanks will always be odds-on vs tanks given equal promotions (and they are markedly cheaper).

For water maps I do favor flight, because you need naval superiority anyway (and thus earlier combustion) and flight is just after combustion and adds a HUGE lift to your naval and land power. For land maps, I like assembly line/arty since it's basically a game-ending tech combo by itself.

When I do use an early beeline to flight, the support unit I prefer on the ground is cavalry. Cavalry fit this role particularly well because 1) they're fast and 2) with pinch they are going to be effective against everything on the ground once you hit it with fighters. While rifles can sort of beat tanks at 14 str, combat II cavalry with some inherent withdraw do far better, and pinch cavalry are decent against infantry even if they're both healthy and can easily down 10 str infantry defending cities. Cavalry also have no weakness to machine guns and whatever rifles can do to them they can't do it at 7 str.

Speed coupled with low casualties is a very nice thing, and if you are going balls-out on a very heavy carrier fleet to launch an invasion, cavalry are going to take minimal casualties even against opponents well into the industrial era, making them your best option until you get tanks.

 

[Grey Fox]

You can win the game without Flight.

I'm thorn between some of the ancient techs as best tech in the game. Probably BW because of slavery and chopping.

You can win without slavery too, but it improves your odds a lot more than flight does.

 

[sourdiesel]

Whether you are a warmonger seaking to destroy the world, or a pacifist builder (like me) who simply wishes to defend yourself from Boudica, then flight is the most important tech in the game. It is the most unbalancing tech regarding warfare.

Flight permits you to kill enemy units without taking any losses. With flight, you can win every single naval and land battle. It is the single military tech that an opposing side in a war cannot counter against without actually having flight themselves. If a human can achieve air superiority (or be the only one with flight) than the AI can do nothing but die.

Specifically, what makes Flight the single most unbalancing factor in warfare?

1. It removes the need for relying upon suicide siege units (thus freeing hammer production for military units rather than kamikazes), bcz fighters can do everything that siege units can do but without dying. Flight can remove city defenses and weaken city defenders. It can decimate an attacking stack. It stops those pesky airships from weakening your units. It can weaken enemy ships so that your own ships are guarranteed to win every fight. Flight stops tanks in their tracks.

2. Flight enables airports which provide an extra route that can fund your expanding military, and it enables airlifting.

3. The ability to airlift might actually be its most powerful bonus. If you have airports in all of your cities, then you now possess the ability to airlift 10 units into any border city that might suddenly come under attack. It therefore gives you superior mobility, and the ability to immediately respond to any move the AI makes. Or, if after conquering an enemy city halfway across the world, after you build an airport in that city you can airlift 10 units into that city each turn (which beats shipping them, or waiting for railroads) that can either defend the city, or simply press the attack further into enemy territory. This ability, therefore, makes intercontinental warfare moot, and makes navies unimportant and unnecessary (except for resource defense if the sea patrol function actually worked ).

All true in real life. This is one of the reasons Civ4 is awesome.

 

[r_rolo1]

This started all over again?

 

[ChiefTonfa]

you make a good point, i realize now im not using flight to it's full effectiveness. i would say my favorite tech, maybe not best, but my favorite, is railroad. First, it gives you rails and the ability to travel anywhere in a large empire within a few turns. then, it gives u a very good defense unit, the machine gun, to use on those rails. also, it gives you a decent production bonus in your cities. usually when i get railroad i have rifles or am on medievel tech. and whenever i get it, it just gives me this safety net feeling that i never get until then. it totally changes the nature of military. before railroad, you're being attacked by medievel units, curriassiers, maybe rifles and calvary. you have to have strong defenses in most of your cites. then you get railroad, spam a couple big stacks of machine guns, place them at two strategic spots so they can reach any frontier city in one or two turns with the new rails, and you dont really have to worry about war for a long time.

 

[Junuxx]

I'll go with bronze working myself.

Makes sense to me.

Or Assembly Line perhaps. I often end up controlling my home continent by the industrial era, only to discover that it has no oil (on land land anyway). Then I'd really prefer to put a bunch of no-resource Infantry and Marines in some bloody Galleons than get Flight and be unable to build Fighters.

 

[jeffreyac]

You must use the window of opportunity appropriately.

So, how is that different from, say, getting rilfes first and using your window? Or axes? Or tanks? Or maces?

I think really it's about gaining an advantage and using it here, not specifically about flight itself, as this logic can be used on many techs.

EDIT: Rilfes are a lot like rifles, but scarier, as they're wielded by people who can't spell.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

So, how is that different from, say, getting rilfes first and using your window? Or axes? Or tanks? Or maces?

It isn't. The reason I mentioned infantry/arty/anti-tank is that while they dominate earlier eras handily, they remain effective (even cost effective) against troops a full era in front as well. They are the largest non-UU window of opportunity in the entire game.

If you get enough SAMs (one more tech away) later on to keep gunships off of you, you can actually keep using those units (with some losses but you won't be flanked so #'s will win using siege collateral) for the entire rest of the game. And they will cut through AI territory easily until modern armor as long as you have a lot of CR II or better arty.

 

[KaytieKat]

This started all over again?

Hi

Aww it could be worse. PPL could be necroposting the poland threads instead hehe

::runs and hides::

Kaytie

 

[Mikeda]

I like flight because of the excellent speed it enables. Airports are CRUCIAL when a BFC is far away from the war front. On a big + small map I had 4 BFCs on an island, they were producing infantry every two turns, and took 5-6 turns to reach the front. Solution? Build two airports and the immediate reinforcements immediately paid for themselves. The airports kept on getting better when I got better units, as they came in 5-6 turns earlier then if I didn't build the airports. When one of my weakly defended cities came under attack? Airports to the rescue!

Enough people have talked about bombers.

Favorite tech actually is AH + the wheel. I'm a beginner (noble), but I've grabbed so many workers and so many cities with as few as two immortals (obviously I like persia). I just finished a game where by 1000bc I killed one race (2 workers + cities), crippled another (stole 3 workers), and ended up 100 points ahead. I was going to steamroll another, but alas, I was too slow and got copper. Prehaps my tastes will change however when I become a stronger player (Noble now)

 

[De Begerac]

.....

 

[r_rolo1]

Aww it could be worse. PPL could be necroposting the poland threads instead hehe

::runs and hides::

I don't have issues with necroposting.... My issue is that :

a) I pretty much burned all the possible arguments I had in this issue during the thread quite a while ago ( if you care to read the rest of the thread, that is indeed a pretty decent thread if you skim out the "X tech pwns" style posts )

b) This kind of threads has the bad tendency to derail into ice cream flavour styled discussions: "Chocolate is better because it is darker that strawberry", "No, strawberry is better because it has less calories", "hey I like vanilla... simple things are better" "WTF, Vanilla? You must be crazy!" ...... ad infinitum

P.S I pretty much expect that in less than year it will start to appear threads asking for Poland to be in Civ V Oh, the joy of discussing the merits of diferent Central European countries sausages ... ( and, no , I'm not kidding on the sausages )

 

[Yesod]

Was cleaning out the subscriptions folder and saw this thread...Just wanted to reiterate that flight is the best tech in the whole game

No, but seriously, If you're game lasts that long, Flight's about as good in this game as in real life. The bad part is that they now limit you to 4 planes per city with no airport. I remember when you used to be able to stockpile 20-30 bombers in a city and pin down the troops in every city in range or knock out every resource and town. Now you're limited to only what's in range of your carriers, and that's a whole other tech you gotta research.

I still haven't found a more powerful strategy than "Sirian's Doctrine" in Modern wars (nukes are too much for me). Good stuff.