The National Culture

I'm concerned with national languages being slowly replaced by English. With no language there's no distinctive culture or nation to start with. And it's only part of damage caused by anglicisation.

(So, Veles, as a Russian nationalist (if I understand your ideological disposition right) you should agitate against excessive use of loanwords in Russian ;))
 
I'm concerned with national languages being slowly replaced by English. With no language there's no distinctive culture or nation to start with. And it's only part of damage caused by anglicisation.
You're aware that at the time of the French Revolution, less than half of the population of France spoke French, and around 20% of them as a first language?

The nationhood-language connection is political.
 
I'm concerned with national languages being slowly replaced by English. With no language there's no distinctive culture or nation to start with. And it's only part of damage caused by anglicisation.

Well, the British, Irish and American cultures are pretty distinguishable from eachother, despite having a common language.

EDIT:

You're aware that at the time of the French Revolution, less than half of the population of France spoke French, and around 20% of them as a first language?

Which also proves that national identities - despite popular belief - were often imposed from the top for political reasons as well, for good or ill.
 
Bros, Y U NO post pics or vids? How are we supposed to know what your culture is like?


...
So, Veles, as a Russian nationalist...

Spoiler :
NO.png


Not in that sense, at least. Most of my rants of that kind are just mild trolling. Can't help it, sometimes, really.
Troll Trollovich Trollov of Trollsk, nice to meet you :hatsoff:

I just happen to like the culture of the land I live in. And I'm "celebrating diversity" by supporting it ;)


...(if I understand your ideological disposition right) you should agitate against excessive use of loanwords in Russian ;))

Bro, I'm all for that.
 
Well, the British, Irish and American cultures are pretty distinguishable from eachother, despite having a common language.
In a big picture, those are three very similar cultures, two of which are almost identical. Personally, I do not want to live in such a poor world without any true diversity.

Anglophone world by itself should be viewed as one big super culture or super ethnos.

Which also proves that national identities - despite popular belief - were often imposed from the top for political reasons as well, for good or ill.
No, that what you are writing is a popular belief. In the real world, there are too many factors, and reducing them to the politics is a simplistic way of thinking.


Spoiler :
Troll Trollovich Trollov of Trollsk, nice to meet you :hatsoff:
Okay, nice to meet you too (we are not that far here ;))
 
Meh, I can't be sad about something as fictional as "culture" changing too much for old people. Yeah, there's great things we consider "culture", such as certain styles of music, foods, architecture, etc., but any of that worth keeping will be preserved.

I'm more interested in what the human cultural cabinet is going to be filled with, once we throw out the dusted goods.

You're aware that at the time of the French Revolution, less than half of the population of France spoke French, and around 20% of them as a first language?

The nationhood-language connection is political.

Strange, I never knew this. What did they speak? Or do you mean that literally, and they were mostly illiterate?
 
Some moar Russian folklore motiffs. (Will somebody post something too? I don't feel like being forever alone.)

Spoiler :

images.jpg

images.jpg

images.jpg

images.jpg

images.jpg

images.jpg

images.jpg

images.jpg

images.jpg

images.jpg

images.jpg

images.jpg

images.jpg

images.jpg

images.jpg

images.jpg

images.jpg

images.jpg

images.jpg

images.jpg

images.jpg

images.jpg

images.jpg

images.jpg

images.jpg

images.jpg

images.jpg

images.jpg

images.jpg





"National culture" is an invention of the 18th century. To the extent that it has ever existed, it was constructed, and if fades away, that's because it has ceased to effectively perform the function that it once did. Cultural diversity existed long before it, so it can survive it.

So, are all those kilts and pipes made up? Would it upset you, if they all are forgotten? Scottish Gaellic is almost no longer spoken. It effectively ceased to perform the function it once did. Can you honestly say, that you're fine with that?
 
...I'm more interested in what the human cultural cabinet is going to be filled with, once we throw out the dusted goods.

That's a part of the issue. Dusted "good" goods thrown out, cabinet gets stuffed with new sh*t of considerable cultural value. You can't explain that.


Strange, I never knew this. What did they speak? Or do you mean that literally, and they were mostly illiterate?

Breton, Occitan and other local languages, I suppose.
 
So, are all those kilts and pipes made up? Would it upset you, if they all are forgotten? Scottish Gaellic is almost no longer spoken. It effectively ceased to perform the function it once did. Can you honestly say, that you're fine with that?

The pipes and the kilts were just...well, something they did. Do they have a reason outside of themselves?

And so what if Scottish Gaellic is rarely spoken? Is it recorded? Can it be used for linguistic study? It seems the Scots can still communicate...barely. :p

That's a part of the issue. Dusted "good" goods thrown out, cabinet gets stuffed with new sh*t of considerable cultural value. You can't explain that.

I imagine its something that happened to many small units of society when they banded together. :shrug:

What person can really say which parts of a culture are "good" when cultures are consolidated?
 
Continuing the bombardment:
Spoiler :




Sviatovid
images.jpg



Radegast
images.jpg



Perun
images.jpg


Hors
images.jpg



Belobog
images.jpg



Chernobog
images.jpg



Div
images.jpg



Svarog
images.jpg



images.jpg



images.jpg


images.jpg



images.jpg


images.jpg


images.jpg


images.jpg


images.jpg


images.jpg


images.jpg


images.jpg


images.jpg


images.jpg


images.jpg


images.jpg


images.jpg


images.jpg


A Slavic mythical civilization of Belovodie
images.jpg

images.jpg



images.jpg



images.jpg



images.jpg



 
In a big picture, those are three very similar cultures, two of which are almost identical. Personally, I do not want to live in such a poor world without any true diversity.

Anglophone world by itself should be viewed as one big super culture or super ethnos.

Of course they are all similiar in some respects, but that's for most part due to common history and close cultural contacts, not common language, though I concede common language does make it much easier to have close cultural links and common history.
Many African countries have French and English as official languages, but are culturally vastly different from the country their most common tongue originates from.

I think you are prone to lumping Anglophone countries together, just like too many Westerners who aren't able to tell Arab countries apart from Turkic countries, or Post-Soviet countries from eachother.

No, that what you are writing is a popular belief. In the real world, there are too many factors, and reducing them to the politics is a simplistic way of thinking.

Of course there are many factors, but in case of many nation states, politics is the most influential of all. Most of today's "nation-states" were rife with regional languages that were mutually intelligible at best and at worst didn't even belong to the same linguistic family.
As Traitorfish pointed out, many regional dialects and languages were spoken throughout France at the time of the French revolution, making the adjective "French" nearly an anachronism. Around mid 19th century, French started to speak a common French language taught via a common national education system. The reality is, that most of "nation-states" looked like Spain does today.
 
Strange, I never knew this. What did they speak? Or do you mean that literally, and they were mostly illiterate?
Various regional languages:

632px-Langues_de_la_France.svg.png


"French" is basically the big yellow blob in the upper-middle, of which Parisien is the standard dialect. The green and Northern red areas are more distantly related members of the Oïl family (the relationship is like that between English and Scots), the red ones are the Occitan languages, the blue ones are Franco-Provençal, the purple ones are Flemish and German, and Breton, Basque and Catalan speak for themselves. There were also quite a few Italian-speakers in the far South-East, although they only show up here as Corsican. ("Jersais" is just Channel Islands English, not really sure why it's included.)

(Edit: Although when I say "Italian-speakers", what I should really be saying is "people who spoke languages that were primarily spoken in what is now Italy". Italy was almost as divided as France was, in this regard.)

So, are all those kilts and pipes made up? Would it upset you, if they all are forgotten? Scottish Gaellic is almost no longer spoken. It effectively ceased to perform the function it once did. Can you honestly say, that you're fine with that?
I'm not talking about the culture itself, I'm talking about its formalisation as "national". Scotland is in fact a perfect example of what I'm talking about, because its identification as a single "nation" only really dates the 18th century, when the Gaels were expelled from the Highlands and Isles and ended up intermingling with the Lowland populations. Until that point, the Lowlanders were seen as a variety of Englishman, and the Highlanders as a breed of Irishman; it's only when the two got jumbled that anybody really started thinking of "Scottish" as something in itself.

I'm all for preserving regional and minority cultures, but I think that they should be preserved for their own sake, not because they have any "national" quality. Where are the Orcadians, in that model? Are they to be reduced to a mere regional flavour of Scotsman, to be trampled as much as the Scots themselves, or are they to form a new "nation" of twenty thousand people? There's always some further division you can make, and always some broader identification you can declare. It's a mug's game.
 
I'm not talking about the culture itself, I'm talking about its formalisation as "national". Scotland is in fact a perfect example of what I'm talking about, because its identification as a single "nation" only really dates the 18th century, when the Gaels were expelled from the Highlands and Isles and ended up intermingling with the Lowland populations. Until that point, the Lowlanders were seen as a variety of Englishman, and the Highlanders as a breed of Irishman; it's only when the two got jumbled that anybody really started thinking of "Scottish" as something in itself.

You have to be careful, because what you are talking about here was itself a recent product in the 18th century. Scotland was one culture (to the extent the Highlands and Lowlands were in the 18th) earlier in the middle ages, and the ideological descotification of Gaelic was largely down to 18th and 19th century Teutonists like John Pinkerton who aped English culture (and has in any case always been an elitist or protestant thing).

In France too early modern fragmentation was a process that reached its height in the early modern period. In the central middle ages, it was perfectably acceptable to refer to all Romance varieties as Latin or Romance just like it was acceptable to call all dialects of Gaul "French" or "Gallic".
 
Pangur Bán;11129350 said:
You have to be careful, because what you are talking about here was itself a recent product in the 18th century. Scotland was one culture (to the extent the Highlands and Lowlands were in the 18th) earlier in the middle ages, and the ideological descotification of Gaelic was largely down to 18th and 19th century Teutonists like John Pinkerton who aped English culture (and has in any case always been an elitist or protestant thing).
It's true that there was a process of Anglicisation after the Union of Crowns and particularly Act of Union that deepened the distinctions between Highlands and Lowlands, but I don't think it's right to say that this represented a process of de-Gaelicisation, or at least not more than inadvertently so. The Gaels had been marginalised since the 14th century, when the Anglo-Norman nobility lead by the Stewarts gained dominance, and at that point such changes would have filtered down to the commoners only gradually. (The only ones who would likely pay much attention were the town-dwellers, and they were already the most Anglicised part of the population because of the trade links with England.) Whatever Gaelic culture it stripped from the Lowlands would have been somewhat residual, and probably unrecognised.
If there was a real change between 1300 and 1800, it's the emergence of the concept of nationhood itself, which meant that the previous understanding of Scotland as an essentially political entity, and thus one which could accommodate multiple peoples, gave way to an understanding of Scotland as a cultural entity, which meant that the dominant group had to exclude the marginal groups from defining this culture. Robert Bruce could rule Gaels and Inglis and call them both "Scots", but George III apparently found himself less able.

In France too early modern fragmentation was a process that reached its height in the early modern period. In the central middle ages, it was perfectably acceptable to refer to all Romance varieties as Latin or Romance just like it was acceptable to call all dialects of Gaul "French" or "Gallic".
Well, again, I think what we're seeing here isn't so much fragmentation as a heightened awareness of fragmentation. A good example of this is found in the organisation of the Knights Hospitaller, which divided itself into a number of "Tongues"- sub-orders based on place of origin. The French knights could be place in the Tongues of France, Auvergne or Provence, which shows an awareness that these regions had different native languages (note the limited use of "France"!), but at the same time the Tongue of Germany also include Hungary, Poland, Bohemia and Scandinavia, showing that they were only held linguistic categories to be of so much significance. (Also, it's interesting to note that Aragon had it's own Tongue, while Portugal was lumped in with Castille. Another example of the essential arbitrariness of modern "nations"! ;))

Edit: Also, it's probably good luck that this thread turned up this week, and not next week, by which time I'll have gotten my grubby mits on a copy of Vanished Kingdoms by Norman Davies, and would likely find myself completely unable to shut the hell up about exactly how made up "nations" actually are. So consider yourself lucky! :lol:
 
It's true that there was a process of Anglicisation after the Union of Crowns and particularly Act of Union that deepened the distinctions between Highlands and Lowlands, but I don't think it's right to say that this represented a process of de-Gaelicisation, or at least not more than inadvertently so. The Gaels had been marginalised since the 14th century, when the Anglo-Norman nobility lead by the Stewarts gained dominance, and at that point such changes would have filtered down to the commoners only gradually. (The only ones who would likely pay much attention were the town-dwellers, and they were already the most Anglicised part of the population because of the trade links with England.) Whatever Gaelic culture it stripped from the Lowlands would have been somewhat residual, and probably unrecognised.
If there was a real change between 1300 and 1800, it's the emergence of the concept of nationhood itself, which meant that the previous understanding of Scotland as an essentially political entity, and thus one which could accommodate multiple peoples, gave way to an understanding of Scotland as a cultural entity, which meant that the dominant group had to exclude the marginal groups from defining this culture. Robert Bruce could rule Gaels and Inglismen and call them both "Scots", but George III apparently found himself less able.

So what I meant was that Gaelic in Scotland was perceived until the 18th century as being the ancestral language of all Scot, even those not speaking it (and even those in the Merse, where it was never dominant), and people had a variety of accounts why the language "changed" (Malcolm married Margaret, the treason of the earls of Dunbar, Edward I introducing it). But that idea was systematically assaulted in the 18th and 19th centuries by Teutonist antiquarians, as you probably know.

But an interesting point to make, and one that I frequently make to colleagues, is that the Celtic term Alba actually represents a diachronic semantic continuum that stretches back even to the era before the Romans: "Britain", "non-Roman Britain", "Pictland-Scotland". That's not necessarily a "nation" in the modern sense, but nonetheless is related (and just read your early Irish sagas if you want to see whether or not the concept is important!). Also, like I also like to point out, many European nations are actually derived from established church provinces, derived often from Roman administrative provinces , from which the modern ideas are derived. Examples exclude "Spain", "Germany", "Italy", "Russia" (medieval), and indeed "Scotland" (medieval).

Well, again, I think what we're seeing here isn't so much fragmentation as a heightened awareness of fragmentation. A good example of this is found in the organisation of the Knights Hospitaller, which divided itself into a number of "Tongues"- sub-orders based on place of origin. The French knights could be place in the Tongues of France, Auvergne or Provence, which shows an awareness that these regions had different native languages (note the limited use of "France"!), but at the same time the Tongue of Germany also include Hungary, Poland, Bohemia and Scandinavia, showing that they were only held linguistic categories to be of so much significance. (Also, it's interesting to note that Aragon had it's own Tongue, while Portugal was lumped in with Castille. Another example of the essential arbitrariness of modern "nations"! ;))

Yes, modern nations are arbitrary in this sense. The vast majority are inventions of the 19th and 20th century, and their use as modes of historical narrative is my bete noir.

The latin word "Lingua" is ambiguous, like most words. Think of semantic hierarchies, concentric semantic circles. Here language is at the centre, but related meanings like race, and region are on the outer parts. The extension of such a region is not so linguistically arbitrary as you may think. The burgher and much of the upper classes of Poland, Hungary and Bohemia were German in speech (the lingua franca of eastern Europe until the age of Stalin) in the later middle ages, and Scandinavians were often seen as Germans (one 13th century Icelandic source apparently says Icelanders could understand the language as far south as Mainz!). For "Latin Europe", the Latins (Frenchies. Italians, Iberians) formed a core group, and often all other western Europeans were treated as "Germans" when administratively convenient (for instance, in earlier universities).

And, btw, yes, I remember reading an account of Vasco da Gama's voyage and they were refering to their language as Castilian ... probably meaning they perceived their dialect of Romance as somehow a version of the Romance associated with the Castilian court. Aragonese has been oscured by the patriotism and hegemonic role of Catalan, though incidentally the early medieval kingdom of Aragon was actually Basque (though many modern Spanish history enthusiasts will deny this, that's what the evidence strongly suggests).

Edit: Also, it's probably good luck that this thread turned up this week, and not next week, by which time I'll have gotten my grubby mits on a copy of Vanished Kingdoms by Norman Davies, and would likely find myself completely unable to shut the hell up about exactly how made up "nations" actually are. So consider yourself lucky!

Yes, saw that. I'm always interested to hear what people say, so long as it's sensible. ;)
 
Well, I don't think that we're really disagreeing about much here, so I suppose we can leave it at that. :) (Although I'll note that the point about the role of German as a lingua franca in much of Central Europe is a good one. I suppose I'm committing the very crime that I'm supposedly railing in against in supposing that "Poland .'. they speak Polish"! :crazyeye:)
 
I'm not talking about the culture itself, I'm talking about its formalisation as "national"...I'm all for preserving regional and minority cultures, but I think that they should be preserved for their own sake, not because they have any "national" quality.

Nothing to disagree on here. By the way, by "national" I didn't mean the "official" culture of the country; just used it at as opposed to "globalized mish-mash of different pop-cultures, that is conquering the world nowadays". Which isn't bad in itself, (pizza and sushi was a good addition to Russian national cuisine :mischief:) , but doen't serve well to that proverbial diversity.


Where are the Orcadians, in that model? Are they to be reduced to a mere regional flavour of Scotsman...

Sounds pretty accurate, imo. Just how Ukrainins and Belarusinas and Russinas are a subset of the Rus' (the region, not the supposed Nordic tribe) culture. And why "reduced"? "Scottish" becomes a purely geographical description here. Scotsman whose ancestors were Nordicised Gaels, who were previousely Gallicised Picts or however they called them.


There's always some further division you can make, and always some broader identification you can declare. It's a mug's game.

Some (arbitrary) criteria could be agreed upon, on how we grade and classify cultures, but this isn't really neccessary, imo. We objectively need a language of universal communication. (Too bad it can't be Classical Latin.) We also need a universal set of basic values. Other than that, local flavours may be encouraged, as long as they don't cause tensions. As we say here, "every sandpiper praises his own swamp."
 
Well, I don't think that we're really disagreeing about much here, so I suppose we can leave it at that. :) (Although I'll note that the point about the role of German as a lingua franca in much of Central Europe is a good one. I suppose I'm committing the very crime that I'm supposedly railing in against in supposing that "Poland .'. they speak Polish"! :crazyeye:)

Historically, didn't German and Polish language speakers have a broad region of territory that overlapped? That wasn't so much definably "one country or the other" because the regions were essentially both from a historical perspective? And it was just a matter of who could control what territory at what time.
 
Historically, didn't German and Polish language speakers have a broad region of territory that overlapped? That wasn't so much definably "one country or the other" because the regions were essentially both from a historical perspective? And it was just a matter of who could control what territory at what time.

This is Laba (Elbe) drainage basin.

568px-Elbe_Einzugsgebiet.png


Prior to Frankish and Saxon drang nach Osten, starting around VIII century A.D., it was almost entirely Slavic. You could still recognise it by toponymy, which is left almost unchanged since those times. Most of the names of places are just Teutonized Slavic names: Leipzig - Lipetsk, Scwerin - Zverin, Dresden - Drozdov, Potsdam - Postupim, Cottbus - Hotebud and MANY more instances.

The same is true for Oder and Vistula basins, so it's more like a question of Gerries taking our lands and assimilating our language :trouble: :gripe:
 
Back
Top Bottom