The new, revamped Constitution - Citizen Discussion

Originally posted by Immortal


I am interested in a little more detail about these positions, how exactly will they work?
It sets up an official department to regulate investigations, etc. Instead of an investigation and trial being launched by whichever person has a grief, one person (the Judge Advocate) is tasked with presenting the investigation and poll in a uniform, impartial manner. The Public Defender is there to help the accused to defend him/herself and guarantee the impartiality of the Judge Advocate posts. Note that the Judge Advocate does not function as a prosecutor - that is up to the citizenry. Also, the Public Defender is not the only defense for the accused. The accused him/herself and the citizenry are responsible for defending the accused.
 
In regards to Donsig's proposal:

Sorry that I don't have time to comment in full right now. In brief, I think it has unique opportunities to increase the playability and enjoyment of the game. My only concern is the scope of the change but I'm also certain that this can be put in context if we give it enough discussion.

I promise a full comment tomorrow.
 
I believe the DOM said earlier he was going to head up investigations from now on.
 
Originally posted by Immortal
I believe the DOM said earlier he was going to head up investigations from now on.
Yes, under the current system. The problem right now is a lack of consistency and impartiality in the investigations and trials. A dedicated official that is answerable for that consistency and impartiality will solve that problem.
 
Donsig's posted suggestion is one part of an overall change that I believe will smooth out play of the game as well as go far in balancing power in the game and increasing citizen control and participation. Here's the overall plan (mostly donsig's but with a couple tweaks of my own):

The government is formed of three coequal branches. The Executive branch consists of the Department Leaders and is headed by the President. The Legislative branch consists of the entirety of the citizens. The Judicial branch has 3 members - The Judge Advocate (prosecutor), the Public Defender (defense) and the Chief Justice (overseer of the branch, can fill in for either roll).

Constitutional amendments are promoted by the legislature. They must be approved by the legislature and then ratified by the Provincial Governors.

Laws are promoted by the legislature. They must be approved by the legislature.

Standards are promoted by the executive branch. They must be approved by the executive branch.

All amendments, laws and standards must pass a judicial review by the judiciary to determine if they conflict with existing amendments, laws and standards.

You may notice that this is very close to the system in place in the US, GB, Canada and Australia. It is likely in place elsewhere as it works very well. The job of the executive branch is to get the job done. They run the country according to the guidelines set by the law. The legislature is the guiding force - they determine what the rules are. The judiciary is a balancing force and makes sure that things stay on an even keel. There are checks and balances between the 3 branches. The executive and judicial branches have no power to make laws. The legislative and judicial branches have no power to implement laws. The executive and legislative branches have no power to enforce laws.

What this changes in our game is that the citizens become the law makers. The Legislative Council Vote is eliminated. The Judiciary is a check against improper law making. The Provincial Governors gain a very important power - they are the final protection for the Constitution. The citizen proxy vote is eliminated as the legislature (citizens) are directly handling the laws. All groups are now very important in the running of the game. There is no such thing as a "mere" citizen as every citizen has the power to promote laws and amendments.

The real beauty is that very little of our current Constitution proposal would need to be changed.

I would like to immediately rework the Constitution proposal to incorporate these changes. Please leave feedback (positive or negative) on how you feel about this idea.
 
Good plan. Equally distributed control and power for different aspects of the game. I like it. Will this change have any effect on other parts of the game not mentioned here?
 
Ancillary stuff like vote procedures would need to be expanded to cover these changes but no other aspects of the game would need to be altered for these to fit.

The judiciary would also rule on interpretations and clarifications of existing laws. This would eliminate all those questions that pop up about "Does it mean this" or "does it mean that" or "what was the intent of this rule". The judiciary could also be used to dismiss charges when they have no merit (example - the charges are based on an interpretation or stretch of the rules that has since been clarified). Those 2 items would round out the judiciary responsibilities to make them very much like in real life.
 
Originally posted by Cyc
Good plan. Equally distributed control and power for different aspects of the game. I like it. Will this change have any effect on other parts of the game not mentioned here?

Just want to point out that in my proposal I intentionally left out the part about the domestic leader being the governor of the core province because I think that governor should be elected just like all other governors. I think it especially imporant to separate the domestic leader from the governship of a province in light of the new gubernatorial powers suggested by Shaitan.
 
Originally posted by donsig


Just want to point out that in my proposal I intentionally left out the part about the domestic leader being the governor of the core province because I think that governor should be elected just like all other governors. I think it especially imporant to separate the domestic leader from the governship of a province in light of the new gubernatorial powers suggested by Shaitan.
Sorry, I missed that part. It's a good idea and I concur with the reasoning behind it.
 
Version 1.5

This includes the changes proposed. I'm not shoving this down anybody's throat - we can always go back to 1.4 if this gets a lot of flak. I needed to go through it to see what, if anything, would be changed so I figured I might as well share the knowledge. ;)

Blue text indicates change from the last version.

You can also load the previous versions from this latest file. In Word choose File | Versions.
 
i want to add some things:
1) judical elections should be separated from executive elections. like executive elections on the end of the month, judical in the middle (15th).
this wont leave us without judical controll during election phase. as we already noticed, things get confused as positions change. with overlapping elections, we would be able to have controll thruout the term
2) constitutional approval by all three positions of power in the game (judical, executive and legislative powers). this will make it even harder to change the constitution.
laws need judical and legislative approval, standards only legislative approval

now some questions:
1) please state now which position belongs to which state-power
2) how would the flow of decisions be for changes?

and another thing:
what about reduction of offices? as seen in the appropriate threads, we could easily combine some of our positions in cabinet, as they always have to work together (joining departments), wich is also done in real life to reduce "clutter" and waste.
 
another thing:
what about the proposal with having a kind of "status" attached to each article?
as i recap, this was:
a status of "unapproved" will be attached to every new or changed article in laws and constitution, which will then lead to this article been changed like the next lower book. for example, as long as an constitutional article will be unapproved, it will be changable like an article in the book of laws. an article in the book of laws will be changable like a standard.
after one month minimum, a citizen poll will be held to approve the article. the poll will have 4 options: "approve", "disapprove", "delete", "abstain". if disapproved, the article will stay unapprooved for one more month. if delete is chosen, the article is thrown out and can be revamped only after a minimum of one month.
if the article is approved, the status of the article is changed and it can from then on only be changed by the normal ways to change articles of the appropriate book.

this will eliminate the problem of bad articles which can only hardly be changed after ratification.
 
Originally posted by disorganizer
i want to add some things:
1) judical elections should be separated from executive elections. like executive elections on the end of the month, judical in the middle (15th).
this wont leave us without judical controll during election phase. as we already noticed, things get confused as positions change. with overlapping elections, we would be able to have controll thruout the term

I think disorganizer has hit on a key point here, and has a great idea for dealing with it. I support this change.

As to the overall concept, donsig this is outstanding. I am only sorry to see that you will not run for a second term. Your leadership, dedication to the citizens, and great turn summaries will be missed.

Bill
...in PDX, the happiest city in all the known world
 
other things we should change:
1) we dont have a limit on the number of governor-positions you can hold. you can only be one leader at a time, but can theoretically be as many governors as you like. only limit is that you are only allowed to run for 2 positions. i would prefer deleting the "run for 2 positions max" rule and therefore make a rule you are only allowed to accept 2 positions if elected, and only one of those is allowed to be a leader-position.
2) we should extend the nomination range for president from cabinet-members to any elected official
 
1) judical elections should be separated from executive elections. like executive elections on the end of the month, judical in the middle (15th).
this wont leave us without judical controll during election phase. as we already noticed, things get confused as positions change. with overlapping elections, we would be able to have controll thruout the term

An interesting idea. Perhaps take this one step further. There are 3 general bodies being elected (Cabinet, Governors, Judiciary). The election process takes about a week (24th to the end of the month). How about cyclical elections for the 3 bodies? For example, governors at the beginning of the month, judiciary in the middle and executive at the end of the month?

2) constitutional approval by all three positions of power in the game (judical, executive and legislative powers). this will make it even harder to change the constitution.
laws need judical and legislative approval, standards only legislative approval

Judicial review is required for every amendment, law and standard. Note that this is not a personal approval thing, it is strictly to determine if the proposal or change is legal within the existing amendments, laws, standards. It is already going to be extrememly difficult to change the constitution. 2/3 of all citizens plus 2/3 of all governors is not a goal easily met. Laws are the province of the legislative branch and standards are the province of the executive branch. This gives the executive branch the authority needed to fulfill their goal of the day to day running of the country but allows the citizenry to overrule standards with the more powerful laws.

1) please state now which position belongs to which state-power
I'm not sure what you're asking here. The individual powers of the positions are not changed. That is, the Domestic Leader has the same powers and responsibilities as before, as do the other officials.

2) how would the flow of decisions be for changes?
  • Discussion
  • Proposed Poll
  • Judicial Review
  • If it passes Judicial Review the poll can be posted to accept the change
  • If it fails Judicial Review it goes back to discussion

what about reduction of offices? as seen in the appropriate threads, we could easily combine some of our positions in cabinet, as they always have to work together (joining departments), wich is also done in real life to reduce "clutter" and waste.
One of the main goals is to increase participation. Eliminating offices would work against this. Also, I think the 6 offices are important to keep the flavor of the Civ III game.

what about the proposal with having a kind of "status" attached to each article?
as i recap, this was:
a status of "unapproved" will be attached to every new or changed article in laws and constitution, which will then lead to this article been changed like the next lower book. for example, as long as an constitutional article will be unapproved, it will be changable like an article in the book of laws. an article in the book of laws will be changable like a standard.
after one month minimum, a citizen poll will be held to approve the article. the poll will have 4 options: "approve", "disapprove", "delete", "abstain". if disapproved, the article will stay unapprooved for one more month. if delete is chosen, the article is thrown out and can be revamped only after a minimum of one month.
if the article is approved, the status of the article is changed and it can from then on only be changed by the normal ways to change articles of the appropriate book.

this will eliminate the problem of bad articles which can only hardly be changed after ratification.

This is an interesting idea. To save bookkeeping headache I would simplify it. New articles and laws get a stamp of "Tentative until mm/dd/yy" and at that point become firm. Until that point the quorum and approval requirement for changing/deleting them is 1/2 instead of 2/3. Sound doable?

1) we dont have a limit on the number of governor-positions you can hold. you can only be one leader at a time, but can theoretically be as many governors as you like. only limit is that you are only allowed to run for 2 positions. i would prefer deleting the "run for 2 positions max" rule and therefore make a rule you are only allowed to accept 2 positions if elected, and only one of those is allowed to be a leader-position.
I caught that too and fixed it in the Laws. Goverors are officially leaders and any one person can only hold 1 leader position (which was the original intent).

2) we should extend the nomination range for president from cabinet-members to any elected official
This was also changed in the election laws already. Leaders, deputies, judiciary, governors and the current Pres & VP are eligible.

Keep 'em coming, dis! This is great stuff.

Everybody, please comment on the election cycle idea and the "tentative" amendment/law idea as these need to be in the Constitution if we wish to adopt them.
 
I mistakenly posted the following as a new thread when it should have gone here. My post from the mistaken thread and Eklektikos' reply to it follow:

Originally posted by Shaitan except he screwed up and made a new thread instead of replying
There is one decent sized problem with any sort of cyclical elections. If an existing official runs for a new office that's not in his/her cycle then the existing office will be vacated mid term if they win the new office.

If we make a rule that citizens currently in a term of office can't run for one of the positions out of their cycle then we lose all of the extra eligibilities for the Presidential race that we've added.

Thoughts?
Originally posted by Eklektikos in reply to Shaitan's erroneous thread
I was going to suggest that the deputy of a leader would take his/her place if that leader moves to a position in a different electoral cycle, but since only the leaders in the cabinet/presidential cycle will have deputies (as far as I can see) that won't work as is. We don't currently have high enough participation to give everyone a deputy, and the position would be largely redundant where governors are concerned anyway.
I really don't see a way around this, given the relatively low number of people involved on a regular basis.
 
Cyclical elections are a good idea and the details can be worked out by the legislature. All we need in the constitution is that government officials are elected, any term limits we want and how many positions a citizen can hold in government and who is eligible for what positions.

I agree that governors are leaders and therefore governors should not be department leaders nor govern more than one province at a time. One thing we could allow is for the president to be a governor or dept. leader as well as president.
 
Ok, I agree with Donsig. All that needs to be in the constitution is a general outline of the principles of our form of democracy. The implementation belongs in the code of laws, soI guess this isn't really the thread to be discussing the mechanics of cyclical elections in. Perhaps your original thread wasn't such a mistake after all, Shaitan! :D
 
Dis: I don't see that that's really a problem. In fact I'd have thought you'd be in favour of this since it prevents the concentration of power within a small group of multi-mandated officials and ensures that as many citizens as possible are involved in the day to day running of the game :-)
 
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