The next few turns...

[Chamnix]

To discuss da Prez' questions from the State of the Empire thread...

I note TBA is now building a warrior – should that be changed to worker? Our warriors have fought off the infidels so far, and Athens will be producing regular warriors soon enough. I don’t think we need other towns producing warriors until they have barracks.


Quote:
What to do with the hut?



I think we might as well pop the hut – we are far enough away from our towns, and they are not on the preferred barbarian axis. If we get barbs, then the worst case is we lose our warrior, but I think we might as well take the chance of getting something useful (of course, we should change the build in Athens to something other than a settler then change it back after popping).


Quote:
What order to improve the Athens terrain? (road first? Mine first?)



Well, that depends on what our plans for Athens are. The goal (I think) is to get it operational as a 6-turn warrior + settler factory starting at size 3. The current settler will knock us back to size 2. I had originally thought we would build a curragh next while we grew back to size 3 (growth to size 3 in 3 turns, curragh completed in 4). Then we could build a worker in 2 turns on growth leaving us at size 3 with no food or shields in the bin. The problem is that we will not have the 2 mined BGs to start the warrior/settler factory yet. We could build a temporizing warrior and run the factory starting at size 3 with 13-14 food in the bin so we would build 2 consecutive settlers to get back on track. If we go with this approach, then we definitely want to road first – the extra shield will not be needed for at least 9 turns, so we are better off getting the extra coins.

A different approach is to build a worker next. The worker should be done in 3 turns on growth. The second worker (who will mine first in this scenario) will have the terrain improved in the nick of time to be able to operate the warrior/settler factory once we grow again.

Of course, then we have 2 choices regarding what to build as we grow again. We can build a 3-turn warrior and operate the factory as originally intended starting at size 3 with no food. If we want to do this, our current worker must begin mining immediately.

Alternatively, we can build a 4-turn curragh to keep our Exalted Defense Minister happy, and either run the factory starting with 7 food in the bin (slightly higher luxury tax some turns) or build another worker to keep our pop at 3 and start with an empty bin. In this case, we won’t need the extra shield yet, so our current worker can road first.

Here is quick summary for those who wish I would just shut up already:

After the settler is complete Athens can build –

A. Start curragh
Turn 4 – complete curragh, start worker
Turn 6 – complete worker, start warrior
Turn 8 – complete warrior, start warrior
Turn 10 – complete warrior, start settler
Turn 14 – complete settler, start settler
Turn 18 – complete settler, start warrior

We will then be at size 3 with no food in the bin. Warrior/Settler factory is operational.

B. Start worker
Turn 3 – complete worker, start curragh
Turn 7 – complete curragh, start warrior
Turn 9 – complete warrior, start settler
Turn 13 – complete settler, start warrior (or worker)

We will then be at size 3 with 7 food in the bin. We can continue operating at the larger size, or build 1 2-turn worker then warrior/settlers at the lower size.

C. Start worker
Turn 3 – complete worker, start warrior
Turn 6 – complete warrior, start warrior
Turn 8 – complete warrior, start settler
Turn 12 – complete settler, start warrior

We will be at size 3 with no food in the bin. Warrior/settler factory is operational.

For option C, the worker needs to mine first. For options A and B, roading first is better.

Of course, I am hungover as I try to calculate this, so it might be a good idea for someone else to confirm my thinking. No one ever said this game was easy…

There are endless other possibilities. For example, in option A, instead of warrior/warrior in turns 6 and 8, we could build a curragh which should complete in turn 9 and leave us in exactly the same spot as choice B turn 9.

Oh, what the heck, let’s call it choice D:

D. Start curragh
Turn 4 – complete curragh, start worker
Turn 6 – complete worker, start curragh
Turn 9 – complete curragh, start settler
Turn 13 – complete settler, start warrior (or worker)

We will then be at size 3 with 7 food in the bin. We can continue operating at the larger size, or build 1 2-turn worker then warrior/settlers at the lower size.

Now I really have to try to get some work done.

 

[fe3333au]

I note TBA is now building a warrior – should that be changed to worker?

Yes it should be worker factory

I think we might as well pop the hut

Yes Yes Yes

Well, that depends on what our plans for Athens are. The goal (I think) is to get it operational as a 6-turn warrior + settler factory starting at size 3. The current settler will knock us back to size 2. I had originally thought ...

I though Athens would be our settler factory ... at the moment we have the security bonus of having our settler production masked from prying eyes (Top Five Cities F-11) we only lose 1 population as we gain 1 through growth at the same instant the settler is produced ... I would like to keep this status quo ...

The other city ... (can we pleeeeease name it by next turn ) ... I thought was to be the worker factory ... however i am happy to have military built from here ... but we would need a barracks IMHO

The next to be founded ... Coastal City ... should produce a ship first and then ... maybe another ship ... and then maybe yet another ship ... other options after that would be upto discussion ... but must have other ships built in the production line ...

Maybe the 5th city up in Dunhill (ex smoker ) ally ... this could be military orientated ...

 

[Chamnix]

I though Athens would be our settler factory ... at the moment we have the security bonus of having our settler production masked from prying eyes (Top Five Cities F-11) we only lose 1 population as we gain 1 through growth at the same instant the settler is produced ... I would like to keep this status quo ...

Absolutely. Athens can only grow every 3 turns, so in general it can only produce a settler every 6 turns. It can easily fit in a warrior during those 6 turns as well if we start as size 3. If we run it as a settler/warrior factory starting at size 3 with no food (options A and C, or options B and D following an extra worker at turn 13), then the settler is produced on growth dropping our pop only 1 as you wish. Only options B and D, and only if we do not build a worker at the end, will lose this cloaking.

 

[peter grimes]

Thanks for the analysis Chamnix. Here are my thoughts:

1. I agree with GoldyIron that a masked settler factory is preferable. I'm not sure how that fits with the options A-D.

2. I think settler spamming soonest should trump all other considerations.

3. Shipyards can be set up in the third city to allow athens productive freedom.

 

[General_W]

I like this direction!

I also would like to see Athens produce a warrior, then a settler (rinse. repeat.)

I think TBA should be switched back to worker (not sure why/when it got switched, but I didn't want to change it back to a worker without input).

3rd city can definately start working on curraghs. We still need to get some final clarity on where it will be built. (Without having it right in front of me - I prefer building right on top of the Elephant, or right next to the Fish to our east).

 

[peter grimes]

Myself, I was liking the reddot spot which is a few squares east of Athens. I still cringe at the thought of wasting the whale, but Chamnix has provided very insightful reasons before; I'm sure his spot makes the most sense.

 

[fe3333au]

Move West Young Man ... Ever West ... because as you see ... there be Sugar ... and we want to control it ...

Are We Sweet Enough ???

And Fish and Elephants ... pity we couldn't tame them into war machines ... Oh Well

 

[peter grimes]

Thanks for the screenie

I'm blind without them... It seems as if Rik has given us all the ivory we could ever want. I wonder what luxuries the other teams will be blessed with? Hmmm... My psychic sense is starting to itch again....

 

[Kentharu]

i think heavan has blessed us!!! or am i just going partially blind thats sugar AND ivory!! with a river on a coast with a hill there must be fishy stuff going on... wait no THERE IS!! fish is there to!!! i have changed my mind.. SETTLE ON THE COAST!!! get the blue dot or whatever as long we we get the ivory coast!!
i think i better go take my pills or else i might bounce all over the house and break everything!

 

[fe3333au]

My psi gene is twitching and i predict as we move the settler west alomg the coast ... fish we will find ... By Meleet there is a strange yet beautiful order to the world

 

[Chamnix]

1. I agree with GoldyIron that a masked settler factory is preferable. I'm not sure how that fits with the options A-D.

2. I think settler spamming soonest should trump all other considerations.

3. Shipyards can be set up in the third city to allow athens productive freedom.

This sounds like a vote for choice C. If we just look at settler production, I think we get:

A - Turns 14, 18, then every 6 turns (settlers masked)
B - Turn 13 then every 6 turns (settlers not masked) or
- Turns 13, 21 then every 6 turns (settlers masked)
C - Turn 12 then every 6 turns (settlers masked)
D - Turn 13 then every 6 turns (settlers not masked) or
- Turns 13, 21 then every 6 turns (settlers masked)

The downside to choice C is that it is the only one without a curragh coming from Athens.

The next to be founded ... Coastal City ... should produce a ship first and then ... maybe another ship ... and then maybe yet another ship ... other options after that would be upto discussion ... but must have other ships built in the production line ...

How many curraghs do you think we need? Obviously we want at least 2 to circle the continent in both directions. The others at first will not explore new territory but will only follow the first 2. I think after 2 we may want to pause to see if we are going to need suicide sailors.

 

[classical_hero]

I like this direction!

I also would like to see Athens produce a warrior, then a settler (rinse. repeat.)

I think TBA should be switched back to worker (not sure why/when it got switched, but I didn't want to change it back to a worker without input).

3rd city can definately start working on curraghs. We still need to get some final clarity on where it will be built. (Without having it right in front of me - I prefer building right on top of the Elephant, or right next to the Fish to our east).

I think Athens should be on a warrior-settler mode. That way we can get as many cities out as fast as possible.

 

[peter grimes]

The downside to choice C is that it is the only one without a curragh coming from Athens

I guess that's the rub. Personally, I'm one of the Navy's biggest supporters. But considering the geological constraints of the map, I think the settler factory should be our national priority. We will have curragh from city3 in a few turns.

 

[classical_hero]

Our third city should be on the ocean so that it is able to build us a navy.

 

[Chamnix]

I think I have a modification to choice C. It doesn’t change the build order or timing, but I believe that by working the forest in for one turn in -2630 we can actually afford for our worker to road first. That means for any of the options I listed, it is either better to road first, or it makes no difference which we do first, so if I did it right this time, I think we should road first, and it will leave all of our options open so we can continuing discussing what to do next. Here is option C:



I think option C is the way to go – let’s get those settlers ASAP!!

 

[fe3333au]

How many curraghs do you think we need? Obviously we want at least 2 to circle the continent in both directions. The others at first will not explore new territory but will only follow the first 2. I think after 2 we may want to pause to see if we are going to need suicide sailors.

As many as I can get

Actually probably a navy of 4 max ... so we can send a company of marines in the next wave ... which will unload on hills, mountains and the occasional beach ... their primary mission to search out the lay of the land and also to 'pop' any hut they may discover ... and perhaps while the marines are on land, the ships can probe the deep blue with short and safe hops put to sea ...

 

[Chamnix]

Continuing to use this as a discussion thread...

Unless otherwise instructed…
I plan to head for the “red dot” location with our settler
I plan to build another Warrior in Athens
I plan to attack the remaining Barbarian with our Western Warrior
I plan to Fortify and Heal with our Northern Warrior (if damaged by Assyrians)

The settler will go to the blue circle.

I think a worker should be the next build, but I am not sure who decides this (and we do have a couple turns to decide for certain).

The warrior is clearly the decision of the Defense Minister, but as a citizen, this is what I would advise:

If we attack a fortified barb on grass we are attacking at 1.5 (50% emperor bonus), and he defends at 1.35 (25% fortification and 10% grassland). I calculate our chances of winning at about 73%, which to me is not good enough.

I believe that if our warrior moves W (so he will be 2 NW of the barb), then the barb will move N to the hill. Our warrior can move N to be 2 NW again. I'm not sure which way the barb will approach. If he moves NW, then we can fortify and defend at 1.85 against his attack of 1. If he moves N, then we can move N to be NW of him, and again we will defend at 1.85 because he will be attacking across the river. Either way, we should win 87% of the time. Since our warrior probably wants to go north anyway, this approach doesn't cost us anything.

I don't have time right now, but I might be able to set up a test scenario later to make sure I have the barbs reactions right (or someone else can do it first, or the Defense Minister can tell me to mind my own business).

 

[Chamnix]

Current Plans in Motion:

Unless otherwise instructed…
I plan to heal our western warrior and continue exploring along the Ivory Coast.
I plan to continue building a worker in Athens
I plan to weep as the barbarians sack Black Hole. (What else can we do?)
I plan to Fortify our Northern Warrior in the forest and wait to see what the Assyrians do.
I plan to keep moving our settler to the Ivory/Blue Dot location.
Request for Action:
Ministers! Please give me your orders for the next turn in the “Instructions for the President” thread!

What can we do (if anything?) about the impending sacking of Black Hole?

Should we be more aggressive with the Assyrians in the North?

Should Athens be building a worker or a warrior? (In light of our impending lesson in surprise attacks – I’m wondering if it might be a good idea to have some local military forces for future reference?)

We had good news on one barb in the west, no news on barbs in the north, and bad news on barbs in the homeland. I don't see anything we can do about Black Hole. I think we should stick to the plan of a worker next in Athens - after the worker (3 turns), we will build 2 consecutive warriors (3 turns and 2 turns) and then a warrior every 6 turns thereafter. Hopefully that will be sufficient until we dedicate a town to build a barracks and get some real military.

 

[fe3333au]

Sounds like a plan Stan ... but thought Athens was a hidden settler factory ... I think the other teams a way ahead with cities ...

The analysis of rumour and heresay at the Looking Glass reflect strongly that TNT and D-Nutters have at least 2 cities and KISS may well be churning them out soon ...

 

[Chamnix]

From the Prez' latest update:

We are set 90% science, 10% Luxury, and 0% Economy – for a Net gain of 0 gold per turn.

Well, that answers one of my questions from the other thread – we only need 10% luxuries to keep The Black Hole happy at size 2. Although I am still curious what tile we chose to work. Also, can anyone test (I probably can in about 9 hours) if we will need 20% luxuries to keep The Black Hole happy at size 2 after we found our next city (and increase the corruption in The Black Hole)?

We are currently building:
Athens: Warrior (done in 3 turns).
Black Hole: Warrior (done in 2 turns)

I’m hoping we can change Athens to worker – still debating in the Domestic Ministry Thread. Not sure about the Black Hole, but it may be moot if the barb kills a citizen or destroys our production.

Current Plans in Motion:

Unless otherwise instructed…
I plan to head north with our Northern Warrior, and see if we can lead the Assyrian barbarians up that way.
I plan to begin mining the bonus grassland outside of Athens.
I plan to heal our Western Warrior for one turn (from the new hill vantage point) and then continue exploring.

Sounds good – I’m torn between wanting the western warrior to explore (go north) and wanting him to head generally NE to where the barb camp most likely is. I will support whatever our Defense Minister chooses.

Do we want to get the wheel still – now that we now we have plenty of Iron? Would something else be a better choice?

I haven’t seen any arguments that anything else would be better.

Should we attack the Assyrians in the North? Or try to lead them further North?

I don’t think these barbarians are much of a threat to us. We could attack on favorable terrain to try to promote. We could try to lead them NW, but we don’t even know where our rivals are yet. We could just concentrate on exploration and let the barbs go where they go. Again, I’m sure our Defense Minister will make a good choice.

Should we adjust where we were planning to build city #3 to grab the Iron instead?

No, a future city will definitely claim that iron. We will stick with the Plan for city #3.