The next few turns...

[peter grimes]

Just to play devil's advocate on the upgrade timing:

If we upgrade smoothly and persistently, as units increase in power there is a small chance we'll achieve an Average military compare to KISS. The key is that our Hoplites have 1 more defensive point than spearmen. It would take about 6 more hoplites (rough estimate) than spearmen, all else being equal, to push us up to Strong. But the more assault units they have, the lesser the effect of our Hoplite numbers.

What I'm getting at: KISS is Strong now, but if they are only Average at turn 104, they may be less likely to start a war. Of course, they may realize that they will lose the advantage if they wait any longer, but still, there is a small chance that our numbers could become a deterrent to attacking.

 

[fe3333au]

i like the idea of testing them ... if they plan to attack whilst we are week and then just at the last minute we suddenly achieve AVERAGE or maybe STRONG ... won't that be the best divine justice kiss thingy

Also anyone else like using catapults ... can we have more built?

 

[Chamnix]

@peter grimes - We will definitely upgrade comfortably before 104 because we want our swords to be able to reach our border towns by 104 - if average by 104 is enough to deter KISS, and 15 swords is enough to reach average, then the deterent effect will still work.

We do not know how much spare military capacity KISS has - if we reach average too soon, then they might be able to increase military production to get back to strong by 104.

One reason to upgrade sooner I just thought of is the chance that we get Feudalism. If we do, then we can no longer upgrade to swords at that point, and we probably will not have enough cash to upgrade 15 warriors to MDI. If we upgrade early, then we can have probably 11 swords and 4 MDI. If we wait to upgrade and get Feudalism, then we can upgrade about 11 warriors to MDI before running out of cash (temporarily).

Which would we prefer - 4 MDI and 11 swords, or 11 MDI and 4 warriors?

As far as catapults, I only know how to use them if I have a massive stack of them to redline an opponents entire stack - I've never found 1 or 2 to be that useful. We certainly don't have time to build a massive stack, but a stack starts with 1 or 2 then goes to a handful first. We have 2 under production now. I think units are more important in general, so towns with barracks should stay on units, but other towns that can reach 2 spt will definitely contribute catapults to the war effort.

 

[fe3333au]

Turn 104

I write this here as it is a mix of Domestic and Defence issues.

Would it be possible for someone to indicate an estimated state of affairs for future (with regards to milepoint turn numbers, including turn 104) with number and type of military units, where they are to be stationed and which towns will have Walls and Barracks. What too will be our naval state of affairs?

I would suggest that Cultural Boarder Towns will have Barracks and Walls, is this the strategy or just walls for them?

If latter then is it the fallback towns which will be barracked and the upgraded warriors will then be marched to frontline?

Will Hoplites be stationed in the Frontline towns? ... if so are we prepared to have a GA induced by them survivin an attack?

Are we interested in an offensive attack on a city ??? ...

Proposed targets could be

1. Anonamouse Spice, (near Flaxon Musk)
> especially with the mountain next to it ... free atm
> no city near for reinforcements

2. Anonamouse Dye, (near Chuck Norrisville)
> has a warrior assigned on alpine patrol.
> reinforcement cities connected and close.
> Possible direction of attack ???

3. Waterbased attack would be
> Idiote
> Notthefullshilling
> Simpleton the capital
> Jesterton
> Frozen Lake

Too far away ... if an option at all, a ruse or harassment


Just musing militarily

 

[fe3333au]

MIA WAR Footing as of beginning Turn 86


Current Military Strength

11 x Warriors
2 x Horseman
1 x Hoplite
1 x Curragh
2 x Galley


City Production

Heron (Barracks, Harbour) training Hoplite in 3
Athens (Barracks) training Hoplite in 2

Look Here (Barracks) training Warrior in 3
Antville (Barracks) training Warrior in 3
Meleagerville (Barracks) training Warrior in 1

Aliakmon Stronghold building Barracks in 5
Phoenopolis building Barracks in 10
EMP City building Barracks in 3

Flaxon Musk building Walls in 11
Woodridge building Walls in 14
Chuck Norrisville building Walls in 12

Ephebe constructing Catapult in 7
Tarkingrad constructing Catapult in 5

5/19 Cities have a Barracks, none have walls

 

[peter grimes]

Thanks for arranging that data, Fe - we've been pretty busy at work lately (and Stacey keeps me pretty busy at home) so I've had a tough time sorting through all of this info. I'm still trying to put together a concise layout that will incorporate the timing of upgrades, moves, and units coming online.

I'm still not done with it, but there's something I noticed:

Meleagerville - warriors on 88 and 90, hoplite on 93
Heron - hoplites on 89, 92, and 95
Antville - warrior on 90
Look Here - warrior on 89
Athens - 2 warriors, 3 hoplites (or maybe 0 warriors, 4 hoplites)
EMP City - 3 hoplites

But, from the latest turnlog, the Iron will be hooked up in on turn 89. Now I don't presume to know about the timing of worker actions vs. builds when we do our turn, but if the worker completes earlier in the turn than the production, then those warrior build will become Swordsmen builds, and we won't have the swords until 97 (antville) and 99 (look here).

I'm not sure what we should do about that, but we really want those units to be warriors, not swords.

 

[General_W]

Couple quick comments:

On Catapults:
I like having cities with low shield production and no barracks build catapults. Chamnix is right – it's best to have a whole stack to redline opponents with – but don't underestimate the power of even just 1 or 2 in a city. We'll be facing Gallic Swords (attack 3) with our Hoplites (defense 3) – and even getting just a 1 hp advantage on a unit or two can make the difference in keeping a town. Against the initial SOD, it may not matter – but in later battles it can turn a close battle. (esp because some human players will wait to heal a couple damaged units before marching on – so a couple damaged units can slow a whole advance!)

On the Culture Wall Towns:
All these towns should have walls – if we can get them in time, but certainly NOT barracks as Fe has suggested (no offense). Those towns will never be productive enough to contribute significantly to the war effort. If we hang on to the cities, they should build the cheapest unit we can build to soak up damage (or maybe catapults)

On a Seaborne Attack:
As Fe mentioned – this is probably not realistic. However, it may be worthwhile to send a couple hoplites north on a boat to cause KISS a pillaging headache. (This will be especially worthwhile if KISS doesn’t give 10 turns notice immediately on turn 94 – giving us more time to get ready.)

 

[Chamnix]

@peter grimes - I am reasonably sure that if we are already building a warrior when the iron is connected, then the warrior will complete, but we won't be able to start any more. There are some builds that autoflip, but I don't think warrior to sword is one of them. I will try to test later, but if I am wrong, there isn't anything good to do about it. Those towns should probably build hoplites instead if they can't finish their warriors - we will enter the war with fewer swords, but more hoplites and more gold (hopefully to upgrade our swords to MDI).

It is important to note, however, that that schedule assumes no anarchy until turn 95. By revolting early, we will get at least the same number of units by 104, but they will not all be able to reach the front.

On catapults - I generally agree with you, but we have to be careful. If the town is so close to being lost that 1 catapult could make a difference, we have to realize that if the town falls we lose the catapult, and it will be used against us.

On culture wall - I agree with walls and no barracks. They will all have walls (cash rushed on turn 103 if necessary). I'm really thinking we should sacrifice Parga and concentrate our defenses on the luxury towns. We don't want to spread our defense too thin.

On seaborne - at the very least I think we should periodically send empty galleys through their territory so they have to pull troops back from the front. I don't know if more than that is realistic in the beginning of the war.

 

[peter grimes]

I was just reading up a bit more in the Military Advisor articles that Rik suggested, and came across a great piece of advice:

Mass upgrades can now provide valueable information on your opponents actual strength provided you do them one by one and note the flip point between weak-average and/or average/strong.

sic

When we get to turn 89 and commence upgrading, we (unfortunately for him, I mean Chamnix, here) should check the Military Advisor after each warrior is upgraded, and see what he says regarding TNT, DNUTs and KISS. Because all of them are STRONG compared to us, they each must have a military value more than 171.6 (I suspect it rounds to 172).

We can get some useful data here if we (Chamnix) takes the time to carry out this chore.

 

[Chamnix]

I wouldn't have it any other way peter - I was planning on doing exactly that... but I wasn't planning on doing it until later. As I mentioned in some other thread, I don't particularly want KISS to see we are average compared to them until as late as possible before turn 104, but you are the boss.

 

[peter grimes]

I'm perfectly comfortable waiting until later to upgrade. I don't think we can afford to wait as late as 102 or 103, unless we get some serious roads built in those jungles.

Maybe, just to throw out a target for us to think about, Turn 100. That way, the next Defense Minister can start his term with a whole bunch of fresh Swordsmen.

 

[classical_hero]

We need to talk about our rail plans since you are in charge of workers. How will you plan on getting up our rail network?

 

[Chamnix]

In part it will depend on where workers are when we get Steam Power and how much guaranteed peace we have remaining - they will all start railroading near their current location to avoid wasting turns and railroad toward the important areas.

In general, I envision starting with something that looks kind of like a giant "T" - connect all our northern frontier towns east to west so troops can reach any point on our front line and drop from there straight through our core so troops can reach the frontline.

Second stage of railroading will be to to circle around our border connecting our coastal towns so any landing parties (Dnuts or KISS) can be dealt with immediately.

Third stage will be improving production in the core. Since almost all of our core towns will be producing cavalry at that point, areas that can reach the next level of cavalry production will be done first (i.e. towns at 16 spt that can reach 20 spt when railroaded for example).

Finally, the "everywhere else" approach. Every tile will be railroaded eventually, even if it doesn't appear to be immediately useful.

Comments?

 

[peter grimes]

I'm sure Chamnix has thought of this, but we will need some redundancy built into the main North/South route from the get-go. Assuming hostilities start close the the completion of the N/S rail, we should ensure that, even if KISS were to sever a rail square, our cannons could still roll to any city in the frontier.

 

[Chamnix]

I'm not really planning on much redundancy there. The plan is still to stop KISS in the jungle at our border. Even if a couple units sneak through to pillage (and die the next turn of course), the roads should be adequate until the railroad is repaired. The coastal loop can serve as a backup as well.

 

[classical_hero]

With the rail network, you must remember that we need 6 workers to complete one tile when we do this, so it will take some time for us to even get simple routes out.

Also I was looking through the save, I saw that the Scientist are having no effect on our research, so I think we could have some taxmen as a result.

 

[Chamnix]

I think east to west across our northern frontier only needs about 10 tiles railroaded because all our cities automatically get rails. Although not all our workers may be finished with their current tasks on turn 162, I would anticipate at least the 60 necessary workers to be free to do that. I estimate that our giant T shouldn't take more than 2 turns, and our coastal circle no more than 3 additional turns after that.

I think scientists are better than taxmen in general (3 beakers > 2 gold). Although it may not look like they are helping right now, we will be able to turn research down by more later because we are using scientists now. The last turn or two before the project is completed, I look at how many scientists we need and make the rest taxmen then.

 

[Chamnix]

I am pleased to report that we have nearly perfect timing with our workers. We have almost completed improving every tile just in time for Steam Power, so almost every worker should be available for railroading duty as soon as Steam Power is discovered (as long as we have coal!!).



Above is my proposed railroad plan. I am assuming we can railroad 15 tiles per turn. The red line will be done first (turn 162) - this connects our northern frontier towns and drops a line toward our core.

Turn 163 the blue line will be completed. Almost all of our barracks towns will be connected (realistically, they don't all have to be immediately on the rail network - the cavalry can certainly move a tile or two on a road to get to the nearest train station).

Turn 164 will be the lavender line - this is the start of the coastal circle. Turn 165 will complete the coastal circle, and begin general improvement. Thereafter, workers will improve tiles depending on what towns can use an extra shield.

The path winds the way it does because I am avoiding hills and mountains, and also prefering mined tiles to irrigated. There may be some minor adjustments depending on what towns can use the extra shield, but that is the basic path I hope to follow.

Comments?

 

[General_W]

wow - let's not even think about what happens if we don't have coal... <shudder>

Plan looks great to me.
Thanks for doing that.

Does this mean we should finally start shutting off the Worker pumps?

 

[Chamnix]

Probably. A worker started now would not get that much work in before railroading was completed, and we don't have that many places workers can be usefully added to.

Depending on how the war goes, we may eventually need more. If we are fighting KISS, we may end up suiciding workers periodically to build a railroad up to a city we want to attack, but it is easy enough to turn the worker pumps back on if necessary.

I guess most of those towns will now start bombardment, but hopefully they will end up being settlers - if our war goes well, we won't need extra bombardment, and we will need lots of settlers.