Meleager
Stoned as a Statue
I like 2 best as well.
I imagine the next thing to build in heron may be a galley(?) though I'm not sure.
I imagine the next thing to build in heron may be a galley(?) though I'm not sure.
The next few turns...
- Thread starter Chamnix
- Start date
A galley is certainly an option, but I thought we should make use of Heron's pop and push out an extra settler first, then a galley. We won't actually have to make that decision for a few turns, so we can wait to see what the situation is then.
classical_hero
In whom I trust
Why are we still building warriors? We should be building better units by now.Chamnix said:
I would push for option 1: the more settlers the sooner the better. For me, it's not about getting the harbor 1 turn sooner - it's about getting the settler 1 turn sooner.
That whole SpiceRace would have gone a little differently if we had headed out 3 turns sooner. Lesson learned.
As for settler/galley - allow me to be the first to formally suggest putting that settler on a galley with a hoplite (suggested first unit from Meleagerville) and send them to BattleIsle.
I'm sure there are various rational reasons not to do this at this point, but I'm getting excited because it's soon to be a reality.
That whole SpiceRace would have gone a little differently if we had headed out 3 turns sooner. Lesson learned.
As for settler/galley - allow me to be the first to formally suggest putting that settler on a galley with a hoplite (suggested first unit from Meleagerville) and send them to BattleIsle.
I'm sure there are various rational reasons not to do this at this point, but I'm getting excited because it's soon to be a reality.
Meleager
Stoned as a Statue
actually pg may be on to something here
Meleagerville goes hoplite
Heron goes settler -> galley
and then we go settling
we would need to make 2 trips if we wanted to send a worker or more military over though
Meleagerville goes hoplite
Heron goes settler -> galley
and then we go settling
we would need to make 2 trips if we wanted to send a worker or more military over though
The turn came around very fast. I will hold it for about 9-10 hours from the time of this post, but we need a decision on this this turn.
I think I still prefer #2.
peter grimes voted for #1.
Meleager voted for #2, but may have been convinced to change to #1 by peter grimes?
If Meleager comes on and makes a decision, I will go with what he says, but in case he doesn't log on in time, please post your opinion here.
fe3333au
Deity
I vote option 1 ... lets get on to yonder shores abroad ... quicker harbour means quicker Galley.
Then first load units to explore and pop huts ... second load settler and hoplite.
Then first load units to explore and pop huts ... second load settler and hoplite.
We need to decide some stuff about Heron and Meleagerville again. In particular, what each will build next, and which gets the BGs.
I'm assuming Heron is building either a Galley or Settler next. Meleagerville will be building either a horseman or a hoplite next. A forest is being chopped to speed Meleagerville's next build.
Heron - Galley or Settler in 4 total
Meleagerville - Horseman in 5 or hoplite in 3.
or
Heron - Galley or Settler in 5 total
Meleagerville - Horseman in 4 or hoplite in 2.
Note that Heron completes its current settler and starts its next project on turn 75, Meleagerville starts its next project on turn 76.
If we are producing a Settler in Heron, then I think we should take 5 turns to do it, so Heron's pop doesn't drop quite as far, Heron's next project goes faster, and our military gets built sooner. We also get more commerce that way. If we are producing a Galley in Heron, then we should probably do it in 4 so we can start a Settler soon and prevent Heron's pop from getting to size 6 again.
I'm assuming Heron is building either a Galley or Settler next. Meleagerville will be building either a horseman or a hoplite next. A forest is being chopped to speed Meleagerville's next build.
Heron - Galley or Settler in 4 total
Meleagerville - Horseman in 5 or hoplite in 3.
or
Heron - Galley or Settler in 5 total
Meleagerville - Horseman in 4 or hoplite in 2.
Note that Heron completes its current settler and starts its next project on turn 75, Meleagerville starts its next project on turn 76.
If we are producing a Settler in Heron, then I think we should take 5 turns to do it, so Heron's pop doesn't drop quite as far, Heron's next project goes faster, and our military gets built sooner. We also get more commerce that way. If we are producing a Galley in Heron, then we should probably do it in 4 so we can start a Settler soon and prevent Heron's pop from getting to size 6 again.
fe3333au
Deity
Here is what I think ... Heron = Settler in 5 ... instead of a diminutive Galley ... in fact is that a Gallette ???
Meleagerville = Horseman in 4, for overseas duty ... and then get Hoplites churning out.
I don't need a crystal ball or other psychic inhancement to see that your not very nautical Mr. Prezident ... do you get sea sick
classical_hero
In whom I trust
Option two is best. I think we should go for a powerful galley over a hopeless settler. 
I'm voting for a HOPLITE and a SETTLER.
We've got a curragh to upgrade - that'll give us two galleys (will we have the cash?) for overseas duty.
We should get some hoplites going... after a couple, maybe then another horeseman.
Where is General_W?! I hope these decisions are Okay with him. I've been trying to use his 'schedule' as a guide.
We've got a curragh to upgrade - that'll give us two galleys (will we have the cash?) for overseas duty.
We should get some hoplites going... after a couple, maybe then another horeseman.
Where is General_W?! I hope these decisions are Okay with him. I've been trying to use his 'schedule' as a guide.
General_W
Councilor & Merlot Noble
Trying to climb back into the saddle.
I'm 100% in favor of another settler from Heron.
As for Meleagerville, I'd like to look at it a little bit more. we need to get Hoplites soon - but Horsemen are more immediately useful, and more expensive, so it may be nice to use the forest chop on one.
Thought it was time to resurrect this thread again...
In order to micromanage our cities most efficiently, I need some guidance on our plan, and ideally I need it before I play the current save. Obviously, military is prioritized, but what type of military and which towns are producing it? There are many possibilities for shield allocation among Heron, Tarkingrad, Meleagerville, and Aliakmon Stronghold and among Look Here, Phoenopolis and Antville - too many for me to reasonably list all of them (or even find all of them probably). Here is what I would like to do as a general rule:
I would prefer our military towns to produce warriors generally for the next 3 turns until iron is connected. The exceptions are obviously any towns that produce 7-8 spt and where no other town can use the excess shields. For example, Heron will be at 7+ spt - there is absolutely no point in reducing it to 5 because no other town can benefit. Meleagerville can be at 7 spt, but if we reduce it to 5 spt, it may be possible to give 1 extra shield to Tarkingrad and 1 to Aliakmon Stronghold that they wouldn't get normally, so we are no worse off in total.
I really want to spend some time looking at details, but I need confirmation that building a few more warriors before hoplites where convenient is OK with everyone. The reason is that unless we have to research Monarchy (where are you, Feaurius??), we still will have more gold for upgrades available than we have warriors to upgrade. Even if we do end up researching Monarchy, giving ourselves veterans to upgrade instead of regulars and having a few regulars for MP and eventual upgrade can't be bad. I think we should build as many warriors (aka 10-shield swordsmen) as we can now before the iron is hooked up.
Once the iron is connected (3-4 turns), then we crank out hoplites (Athens can produce 1 every other turn as can EMP City if we change that to military, and Meleagerville and Heron are 3-turn hoplite factories), then finally horsemen if desired.
Well - I had a little more time than I thought, so I looked at details. Here are the specifics of what I think is best:
Heron starts hoplite (due in 3).
Meleagerville starts another warrior (due in 2).
Antville starts another warrior (due in 4).
Citizen in Athens moved from flood plains to mined grass - Athens will complete the barracks next turn and stay at 10 spt thereafter. We can produce a couple more warriors (I think we probably should, but this can be debated up until we play the turn after this one), or we can go right to 2-turn hoplites.
Citizen in Heron moved from mined BG to mined grass - will complete hoplite in 3 and continue hoplites.
EMP City changed from settler to barracks - we can complete it in 3 then be at 10 spt for whatever units we want.
Citizen in Meleagerville moved from mined BG near Aliakmon Stronghold to mined BG near Heron.
Look Here changed from hoplite to warrior to be complete in 3. We can't get more than 3 spt here, so I think we want a cheaper unit than a hoplite. Citizen in Look Here moved from mined BG to roaded grass.
Flaxon Musk change from worker to walls. Walls will complete in 12. At that point if we haven't revolted yet, we pop-rush a regular hoplite the next turn.
Citizen in Antville moved to mined BG - warrior will be completed in 4.
Citizen in Aliakmon Stronghold moved to mined grass - the growth will pick up the mined BG to the SE and get the extra shield that we are not giving Meleagerville. Without taking a BG from Meleagerville, I don't think we can get 2 spt here yet.
Tarkingrad keeps the mined BG to produce its catapult sooner - if we want Meleagerville to produce a hoplite, the catapult will be delayed.
Pheonopolis citizen moved to BG - it will pick up an extra shield on growth, and if both Look Here and Antville produce warriors for now at 3-3-2-2 shields, then Phoenopolis will always have tiles to keep at 2 spt (the max it can get at size 2).
I recognize that our Defense Minister cannot check the save to see the details of my proposal, hopefully he is OK with the concept and others can check my micromanagement to see if they think I am missing a better opportunity.
And a side note on worker moves - we have a stack of 3 workers on the tile N of Woodridge. I was planning on moving them due N even though that is outside of our territory because that way they get the dyes connected faster. If anyone thinks it is more important to keep the road within our borders, please let me know.
Any opinions are appreciated as we are at a critical phase of the game.
In order to micromanage our cities most efficiently, I need some guidance on our plan, and ideally I need it before I play the current save. Obviously, military is prioritized, but what type of military and which towns are producing it? There are many possibilities for shield allocation among Heron, Tarkingrad, Meleagerville, and Aliakmon Stronghold and among Look Here, Phoenopolis and Antville - too many for me to reasonably list all of them (or even find all of them probably). Here is what I would like to do as a general rule:
I would prefer our military towns to produce warriors generally for the next 3 turns until iron is connected. The exceptions are obviously any towns that produce 7-8 spt and where no other town can use the excess shields. For example, Heron will be at 7+ spt - there is absolutely no point in reducing it to 5 because no other town can benefit. Meleagerville can be at 7 spt, but if we reduce it to 5 spt, it may be possible to give 1 extra shield to Tarkingrad and 1 to Aliakmon Stronghold that they wouldn't get normally, so we are no worse off in total.
I really want to spend some time looking at details, but I need confirmation that building a few more warriors before hoplites where convenient is OK with everyone. The reason is that unless we have to research Monarchy (where are you, Feaurius??), we still will have more gold for upgrades available than we have warriors to upgrade. Even if we do end up researching Monarchy, giving ourselves veterans to upgrade instead of regulars and having a few regulars for MP and eventual upgrade can't be bad. I think we should build as many warriors (aka 10-shield swordsmen) as we can now before the iron is hooked up.
Once the iron is connected (3-4 turns), then we crank out hoplites (Athens can produce 1 every other turn as can EMP City if we change that to military, and Meleagerville and Heron are 3-turn hoplite factories), then finally horsemen if desired.
Well - I had a little more time than I thought, so I looked at details. Here are the specifics of what I think is best:
Heron starts hoplite (due in 3).
Meleagerville starts another warrior (due in 2).
Antville starts another warrior (due in 4).
Citizen in Athens moved from flood plains to mined grass - Athens will complete the barracks next turn and stay at 10 spt thereafter. We can produce a couple more warriors (I think we probably should, but this can be debated up until we play the turn after this one), or we can go right to 2-turn hoplites.
Citizen in Heron moved from mined BG to mined grass - will complete hoplite in 3 and continue hoplites.
EMP City changed from settler to barracks - we can complete it in 3 then be at 10 spt for whatever units we want.
Citizen in Meleagerville moved from mined BG near Aliakmon Stronghold to mined BG near Heron.
Look Here changed from hoplite to warrior to be complete in 3. We can't get more than 3 spt here, so I think we want a cheaper unit than a hoplite. Citizen in Look Here moved from mined BG to roaded grass.
Flaxon Musk change from worker to walls. Walls will complete in 12. At that point if we haven't revolted yet, we pop-rush a regular hoplite the next turn.
Citizen in Antville moved to mined BG - warrior will be completed in 4.
Citizen in Aliakmon Stronghold moved to mined grass - the growth will pick up the mined BG to the SE and get the extra shield that we are not giving Meleagerville. Without taking a BG from Meleagerville, I don't think we can get 2 spt here yet.
Tarkingrad keeps the mined BG to produce its catapult sooner - if we want Meleagerville to produce a hoplite, the catapult will be delayed.
Pheonopolis citizen moved to BG - it will pick up an extra shield on growth, and if both Look Here and Antville produce warriors for now at 3-3-2-2 shields, then Phoenopolis will always have tiles to keep at 2 spt (the max it can get at size 2).
I recognize that our Defense Minister cannot check the save to see the details of my proposal, hopefully he is OK with the concept and others can check my micromanagement to see if they think I am missing a better opportunity.
And a side note on worker moves - we have a stack of 3 workers on the tile N of Woodridge. I was planning on moving them due N even though that is outside of our territory because that way they get the dyes connected faster. If anyone thinks it is more important to keep the road within our borders, please let me know.
Any opinions are appreciated as we are at a critical phase of the game.
Last things first: Workers are easy targets for KISS, especially since we know that KISS has offensive units in the area. I know that we supposedly have a respite until turn 104 - I'm just voicing concern that we don't let our workers get too far afield from escorts. Of course, I fully support upgrading those warriors in the north, now that we have this respite.
I am not about to try and second guess the micromanagement suggestions of Chamnix, but I gave some thought to his proposed build-queues.
If we go with Chamnix' format, we'll have 18 new Hoplites by turn 104, and by turn 94 we'll have 5, with one more at 94. The first of these would be from Heron, then Athens will kick in on turn 91. After 91, we'll basically get 1 hoplite per turn excepting turns 96 and 102; Bonus- on turns 91, 95, 97, 101, and 103 we'll get TWO per turn!!
Coupled with the warriors upgrading to swordsmen, and our Military is set to grow exponentially.
But don't expect to see our Military become STRONG compared to KISS - I've gone over that formula article that Chamnix linked to a while back. Basically attack points are weighted more than defense points, with a little bonus for bombardment points. Because of that, we'd need just over 3 hoplites to equal 2 GS (and even that's not perfect: 12.5 vs 12). Movement is not taken into consideration, which means that as our warriors upgrade, we'll approach their attack strength overall.
Bottom Line: Defense is fine with the outlines of this plan, now that we have the 20-turn 'grace' period assured.
I am not about to try and second guess the micromanagement suggestions of Chamnix, but I gave some thought to his proposed build-queues.
If we go with Chamnix' format, we'll have 18 new Hoplites by turn 104, and by turn 94 we'll have 5, with one more at 94. The first of these would be from Heron, then Athens will kick in on turn 91. After 91, we'll basically get 1 hoplite per turn excepting turns 96 and 102; Bonus- on turns 91, 95, 97, 101, and 103 we'll get TWO per turn!!
Coupled with the warriors upgrading to swordsmen, and our Military is set to grow exponentially.
But don't expect to see our Military become STRONG compared to KISS - I've gone over that formula article that Chamnix linked to a while back. Basically attack points are weighted more than defense points, with a little bonus for bombardment points. Because of that, we'd need just over 3 hoplites to equal 2 GS (and even that's not perfect: 12.5 vs 12). Movement is not taken into consideration, which means that as our warriors upgrade, we'll approach their attack strength overall.
Bottom Line: Defense is fine with the outlines of this plan, now that we have the 20-turn 'grace' period assured.
Black_Hole
Deity
- Joined
- Jan 4, 2004
- Messages
- 3,424
IMO we shouldn't revolt into republic for two reasons:
1. If we follow Chamnix's plan, we will have our army growing very fast, we won't be able to support that for long in Republic, along with going to war
2. Once we enter anarchy, it would be the perfect time for KISS to attack us
However, #1 might not be relevant if we earn enough extra money through republic
1. If we follow Chamnix's plan, we will have our army growing very fast, we won't be able to support that for long in Republic, along with going to war
2. Once we enter anarchy, it would be the perfect time for KISS to attack us
However, #1 might not be relevant if we earn enough extra money through republic
peter grimes said:
The potential is there, but just to make sure I am not misleading anyone... I would really rather be in some government other than Despotism by turn 104 which means we should revolt no later than 95 in case we draw 9 turns. Hopefully, we will have Construction by about 90-92 so we will know if we get Feudalism, or, even better, ideally we can get Monarchy promised from Donuts to be delivered before turn 99.
However, in this case, it is possible that the military we have at turn 95 is what we start the war with. I still am happy with my proposal for the current turn, but we will have to think hard about an extra warrior or 2 from Athens or hoplites right away. By turn 95, I could see the following:
Meleagerville - warriors on 88 and 90, hoplite on 93
Heron - hoplites on 89, 92, and 95
Antville - warrior on 90
Look Here - warrior on 89
Athens - 2 warriors, 3 hoplites (or maybe 0 warriors, 4 hoplites)
EMP City - 3 hoplites
We have 11 warriors currently, but 2 will not be available for upgrade (Butes in the NW and Heron on Battle Isle). So with our 6 new ones, we can upgrade a total of 15 warriors for 900 gold (no problem reaching 900 gold if we are not researching).
So, assuming I haven't screwed up too much, our minimum turn 104 military looks like 15 swords, 2 horses, and 9 hoplites, all produced by turn 95 so they can reach wherever Defense wants them by 104. Hopefully that is enough to turn back the initial charge. It will certainly increase dramatically after that with reduced corruption and our Golden Age, but KISS will be increasing just as rapidly.
You beat me to it... I was outlining the most that could be produced, assuming no anarchy.
However, your presentation of our status at Turn 95 is rosier than I would have guessed: I didn't realize we'd be able to pull out so much cash.
Of course, our cash situation is dependent upon Zero research, and we're screwed if a)we can't get Monarchy from DNUTs if they are even researching it! AND b) we DON'T get Feudalism as our freebie tech.
I do think that KISS will be surprised if they encounter 15 swords and 9 Hoplites staring back at their primary assault. But actually, it's not their first wave that scares me the most: It's the duration of their campaign. This is where people who have real experience vs. humans should speak up. Do humans ever offer peace? Under what circumstances?
However, your presentation of our status at Turn 95 is rosier than I would have guessed: I didn't realize we'd be able to pull out so much cash.
Of course, our cash situation is dependent upon Zero research, and we're screwed if a)we can't get Monarchy from DNUTs if they are even researching it! AND b) we DON'T get Feudalism as our freebie tech.
I do think that KISS will be surprised if they encounter 15 swords and 9 Hoplites staring back at their primary assault. But actually, it's not their first wave that scares me the most: It's the duration of their campaign. This is where people who have real experience vs. humans should speak up. Do humans ever offer peace? Under what circumstances?
General_W
Councilor & Merlot Noble
The military numbers ARE good news. I’m impressed and KISS should be surprised.Peter Grimes said:
Peter’s hit the nail on the head though – especially with our defensive numbers - the duration is what will kill us. Oh, it’ll hurt KISS just as bad (more if things go well), but if the BattleIslanders ever get their act together, or one of them just straight-up wins the war… that’s when our war will really hurt us.
Which brings us to the third point…
I’ve got quite a bit of experience with human players… but that’s really part of the trouble. I have NO experience with anyone on KISS – and human players all have their own style. It can be very hard to predict what a human will do even when you’ve played against them a lot... especially if they’re good.
Here’s what little insight I do have – take it for what it’s worth. Unlike the AI, humans have… well… human nature. They won’t like to lose, and the psychology of battle can have a big impact.
The long wait times of PBEM actually work pretty strongly in favor of peace. If KISS loses a couple big battles in a row, the clamor for peace, will get pretty intense. They’ll have lots of time to think about how things are going, look at their options to turn things around, and if the assessment is grim enough – they’ll look to get peace before things go too far. And that’s the balancing part.
If we push them to hard, and win TOO much – they’ll fight us to the end just to do as much damage as possible. If we want peace, we need a couple big victories – but we don’t want to take anything to critical (or if we do, we need to be ready to give it back for peace). If we want to wipe them out – then of course a scorched earth policy works just fine.
Humans won’t sue for peace if they know that doing so is a “slow death warrant.” There needs to be some possibility for them to come back, or they’ll just keep fighting. Of course, if we leave them too strong, then they really might come back and bite us if we’re not careful!
As far as military tactics – Humans are always resourceful and interesting. SOD (stack-of-doom) is very very common because it’s so effective, but we can expect to see feints, attacks on 2 fronts, pillaging and sitting in the mountains, and innovative movements that adapt to whatever we do. Rarely will humans commit to human-wave assaults where they destroy all their units in a foolish attempt to take a very well guarded city. Unless they are fools unfamiliar with the game (which KISS is not), or really desperate to take the city – Humans will use catapults and pillaging to bring a well defended city to the ground before they send in the full attack. (which is why the ability to counter-attack is VITAL to wining against humans – if all we can do is defend, we’re doomed. That’s why I’m so happy to see those swordsmen numbers!)
Well, that’s enough of me being boring for now. Hopefully that helps. I’ll be interested to hear if anyone has a different take.
When dealing with humans – best to ask yourself, “what would I do if I were KISS?” and then plan for that.
fe3333au
Deity
Game question ... Can you (and I think you can) upgrade more than one unit in a city?
Reason ... let us upgrade just before they attack ... that way they will be thinking soft target ... then WHAM ... Warriors transform to Swords in the Barrack towns.
Reason ... let us upgrade just before they attack ... that way they will be thinking soft target ... then WHAM ... Warriors transform to Swords in the Barrack towns.
fe3333au said:
Yes, and I was thinking the same thing about delaying the upgrade. We can't wait until the very last minute because we need time to move troops from the barracks towns to the front lines, but I agree we should wait as long as possible.
