The Nomadic Age

Stop, I never blamed someone, I just explained why it's an exploit. If you look at it and say that cheating is an exploit, then of course restarting is also an exploit!

Abt no, playing below Sid and playing as the americans is not an exploit (why the hell should they be?).

And there's another thing you do not check. I don't want to balance the game with this feature. I want to add another important part of civilization. Look in the Duden, and you'll see that civilization doesn't mean cities and culture and so on, but is a complex structure of cultural, social and other achievements (I don't have it exactly in mind now).

mfG mitsho

PS: aber was kann man schon von einem Schwob erwarten... ;) (nicht ernst nehmen)
 
Interesting discussion, but....it seems to me that this thread started out talking about the starting location's effect on play balance in multi-player games. Couldn't the players just get an umpire sworn to secrecy to review the starting positions and make sure they're reasonably balanced?
 
Commander Bello said:
Exploit???? :confused:

Where the .... is this exploiting?

It is an exploit because you change the game when you do not like what was given. The same as if one reloads when they do not like the outcome of a battle. Since the human player can do this, while the AI can not, he/she is exploiting the system until they get a result that they like.
 
sealman said:
It is an exploit because you change the game when you do not like what was given. The same as if one reloads when they do not like the outcome of a battle. Since the human player can do this, while the AI can not, he/she is exploiting the system until they get a result that they like.

Yep, but then you have to disallow the ability of chosing civ, map size, and so on as well.

Come on, it is a game. A game means to be fun, not a tournament (at least not each and every time). If I am not satisfied with the starting location, then it is my "divine" right as player and owner, to go for another random setting.
Even the reloading I cannot regard as an exploit, as long as it happens in single-player games, although I don't do it, except for late-night-misclicking with the mouse... Nothing is worse than sending your 24 workers into enemy territory, just because you released the mouse button by accident.

Exploit is, when you are managing the game to behave in a way it was not intended to behave as stated by it's rules.



Special note to Mitsho:
PS: aber was kann man schon von einem Schwob erwarten... (nicht ernst nehmen)
Mehr als von einem Hangnager :p

(this was a special German term for people living at the mountains :) )
 
Thought I might include my suggestion here:

Stone Age - where civs cannot build towns, but can roam the land and settle in villages temporarily, herding and grazing their livestock. When they discover farming or something, they can discover settlement as well. The Huns and Mongols lived this way until the 13th century.
 
Commander Bello said:
Yep, but then you have to disallow the ability of chosing civ, map size, and so on as well.

Come on, it is a game. A game means to be fun, not a tournament (at least not each and every time). If I am not satisfied with the starting location, then it is my "divine" right as player and owner, to go for another random setting.
Even the reloading I cannot regard as an exploit, as long as it happens in single-player games, although I don't do it, except for late-night-misclicking with the mouse... Nothing is worse than sending your 24 workers into enemy territory, just because you released the mouse button by accident.

Exploit is, when you are managing the game to behave in a way it was not intended to behave as stated by it's rules.

Please point me to any part of my points where I did not say that you could not do it? I never said that you could not do it, I was just pointing out that it is an exploit. I don't give a fig if you want to do it or if you want to go into the editor and change all the settings so that your civ has all the attributes while the AI does not. It don't hurt me one bit. And you are right, the whole purpose is to have fun and if your idea for fun in the game is to have the best start possible each and every time, well that is your choice.

And by restarting, you are managing the game to behave in a way it was not intended to behave. While the rules don't say you can't restart, it is implied. After all, if a football team (American Football) does not like where it gets the ball after the opening kickoff, they don't restart. I know you will say that it is different since one is a single player game and the other a team event, but they are both games. With games comes good breaks and bad breaks. Learn to live with both.

With regards to reloading - how can it not be an exploit in single player games but an exploit in multi-player ones? At least that is what I am assuming you are saying here. It is either an exploit or its not, there is no middle ground. If there were, I would at least think it would be the other way around since all the players in the multi player game, with the exception of any AI civs, would have the ability to reload. Although I would still say that is cheating.

Also, the rules state that you can choose your starting civ and all the other options prior to starting the game so choosing them is not an exploit. I do go the random route because I enjoy not know anything about the world when I start a game, I only wish that the mini-map would not provide hints on the map size and my location.

One question for you though, do you restart the game when you discover that one of the AIs have a crappy start?
 
1) Although I have in my long history of civving gotten some horrendous starting spots (on the arctic icepack with no continents nearby, in a large jungle surrounded by mountains, etc), I find that when I have a "bad" game, it is more likely a result of my own poor play than the result of a bad starting position. I return to my earlier point- if it's a multi-player game, get an impartial umpire to review the starting locations. If it's a single-player game, then either restart or accept the challenge of a difficult game.
2) I also go the random route for landmass amount and distribution, wet/dry, warm/cool, and earth age.
3) Regarding the mini-map, I rationalize that if my sages observed that the sun rises in the ESE and sets in the WSW, then I must be North of the equator. However, that's about all I would know, not necessarily how far North I was.
 
Since the civs were given special units and abilities based on their historic exploits, starting locations should also be considered.
Historically, England built the Man-o-War because it started on an island.
The Mongols have a mounted unit because they had lots of horses in their steppe region.
Same with the Russians: the Cossack of the steppes.
The Aztecs lived near the jungles where jaguars roamed.
The Vikings have a marine unit because they lived along the coasts, etc.

I think starting locations should approximately match historic locations of civs.
 
I think starting locations should approximately match historic locations of civs.
there is this "culturally linked start location flag" in case of random maps(because in earth scenarios SP are all ready set up).
You actually mean to specify this flag/option and adapt it to every CIV?
If that is the case, I have to disagree because IMHO it will limit the way you can play with a given civ.I'm for realism, but only when it doesn't reduce fun... :)
 
Beloyar said:
I think starting locations should approximately match historic locations of civs.

There is a higher probability of starting next to the sea of you are a seafaring civ in conquests. Beyond that, maybe you could give an option to start on a certain terrain (starting on a island in civ would be like starting on another continent almost), but I could see how difficult it would be if you were the Maya, and always started in the jungle, or the arabs, and started in the desert, unless you got big bonuses with thoses civs in their favorite terrain, which may make things too complicated.
 
Nomadic Age -- I love this idea! It should be toggable to accomidate players who don't like it. Here is how it should work, IMHO.

First of all, I will call the first era the Pre-Historic Era. You start of with your people, who are a single Nomad unit. Instead of gold your civ will have food as currency. You will start with 10 food have a -1 income each turn no mater what. If you cannot pay the food income, your civ dies:game over.

Here is how to earn food:
(1) Hunt nomadic herd units. These units will stop for a couple turns and roam certain regions. They travel in packs of several units, so you can hunt them a number of times. Every so many turns, the herds would double in size. This might lead to a Nomad civ waiting in a settlement for the herd to replenish then hunting again. Buffalo might earn 3 food per buffalo and other things other amounts.
(2) Make termporary agricultural/faishing settlements. These settlements have one population, don't grow, and only collect food from terrain. Productive terrain would allow you to gain a huge stockpile and roam for a better location/herds. When you abandon them, you get your Nomad unit back.

Fighting:
If food is scarce, you may need to eliminate the competition. In general early warfare will cost you a few turns in food, and possibly get you killed. The only real advantage, besides exclusive access to food, is the militaristic trait you will gain and the +1 HP you will gain for your first kill, +1 Attack for the second, +1 Attack for the third. All this applies to the standard Nomad(1/1/1).

Notes on Settlements:
A settlement will not generate food the same turn it is settled. This prevents players from abandoning-moving-settling in order to move every turn.
No resources of any kind are avaliable right off the bat, even bonus ones. If your settlements borders include one of them, it will be added to your "civ bonus" box. Each resource individual provides a tiny bonus to your civ later in the game. Combinations of resources provide better stuff. Combinations of many many resources will result in great advantages.
The only bonuses that are immediate are Horses and Iron. These make the Nomad better. (1/1/2)with horses, (1/2/1) with Iron, (1/2/2) with both. Because you see the change immediately after you abandon the settlement, you know where horses and iron are for the ancient era.

Pre-Historic Tech Tree:
Technology is all researched at the same rate. The tech tree is designed so that all players become Barbarians or Civilizations at the same time. Now here are the techs, in order.

Agriculture(no prequesite) (8 Turns)
Allows basic settlements and the collection of food from farming. Grain and Wheat now appear on the map.

Fishing(no prequesite) (8 Turns)
Allows basic settlements and the collection of food from fishing. Fish and Whales now appear on the map.

Burial Mounds (requires Agriculture and Fishing) (10 Turns)
Can build Burial Mound in cities.
Burial Mound - 20 Shields. Generates 1cpt.
If a settlement stays in one place for more than 5 Turns, a Burial Mound will be built. This mound remains even when the settlement is abandoned. Later in the game these sites will add 1cpt if within your borders and connected via road to a city.

Fire (requires Agriculture and Fishing) (10 Turns)
When a settlment is abandoned, a seed is planted that will form a minor tribe within 3 squares once the Dawn of Civilzation occurs.

Spiritual Thought (requires Burial Mound and Fire) (14 Turns)
Allows you to choose your Relgious tradition(I assume there will be a religion model in Civ 4).

Husbandry (requires Agriculture) (10 Turns)
Game, Cattle, and Furs now appear on the map.

Permanent Settlement (requires Husbandry and Spritual Thought) (20 Turns)
Allows you to choose to permanently settle. When you enact this option, your Nomad is replaced with a City, a Worker, a Defender(1/1/1), and an Explorer(0/0/1). The cities are limited to size 3. The worker cannot go farther than 1 square outside your borders. You can choose to settle at any time, but also choose to continue without settling. You also no longer have the food requirements and instead have gold. The food you did have now goes into your cities food storage.

Textiles (requires Permanent Settlement) (10 Turns)
Dyes, Silks appear on the map.

Stone Working (requires Permanent Settlement) (10 Turns)
Allows cities to reach population 6.

Wealth (requires Permanent Settlement) (10 Turns)
Allows citizens of cities to be taxed(1 gold per citizen).

Tradition (requiers Textiles and Stone Working) (10 Turns)
Grand Tapestry(Improvement) - 20 Shields. Generates 1 cpt.
Monument(Improvement) - 40 Shields. Generates 2 cpt.

Call to Arms (requires Tradition) (20 Turns)
Defenders(Units) - 10 Shields. (1/1/1) And completely immobile.

The end of the tech tree is a bit funny. It allows you to enter one of two paths of developement. Since everybody will finish researching at the same time, then the Dawn of Civilization occurs. When you reach the Dawn of Civilization all your Defenders turn into Warriors. If someone still hasn't settled by now, they still can wait, but will probably be at a great disadvantage. Each of the two options requires Call to Arms.

Barbarism (20 Turns)
You enter the Barbarian Era. All the seeds you generated during nomadic settlement become Barbarian camps independent of yours(normal civ3 barbs) Barbarian settlements never exceed 4 population and cannot build settlers. Instead when population grows beyond 4, a new Barbarian Settler(1/1/1) appears. They get to keep the Pre-Historic Improvements and still build them. The tech tree for the Barbarian Era is mostly units and resource improvements and special abilities, but lacks culture increasing improvements.

Civilization (20 Turns)
You enter the Ancient Era. You are a normal civ and proceed through the game as such. You can no longer build the Pre-Historic improvements. The seeds you generated during nomadic settlement become Minor Villages.

I won't go into the Barbarian Era techs, but will mention a special point. At the end of the Barbarian Era you can choose between two paths again.

Call of Civilization
This option allows you to enter the ancient era with w/e techs you have researched/traded for. If you have all ancient era techs, you will start in middle ages as a civilized faction.

Warrior Kingdom
This option leads you on to the Warrior Age. You will have specialized buildings and even greater ability for carnage, but your cultural achievements will not be impressive. You will continue as a Barbarian.

During the Warrior Age you can decide at any point to research Call of Civilization, but you will then start with whatever techs and what level you are when you finish researching CoC. This means you can still be a barbarian well into the modern age. The barbarian techs support units all the way to Terrorists.
 
I forgot to add a note.

Tech Trading
Techs can be traded from both sides, Barbarian and Civilized. Barbs cannot use Civilized techs and vice versa. Most of the time Barbarians will extort Civilized techs so they can switch without to much hussle later on. Civilized doesn't have any reason to get Barbarian techs.
 
The game is called "Civilization." I don't see why we'd want to be roaming around unable to build cities for 50 turns.

In my experience, almost every starting location is viable, IF you remain highly flexible. Ironically, I am not. I name my capital city after my wife and I have a pride issue on making sure that her city will ALWAYS be top on the list (usually by one hell of a comfortable margin). So when I see a starting location where that won't be possible, I restart.
 
Your idea is ok...I would change the concept tho...I'd give everyone 2-3 terms to settle ...there shouldn't be a nomadic age...it's just too much
 
my five eggs...

why not instead of placing a "nomadic age2 (although i like the idea of researching barbarian techs) instead let all civs be able to research techs without having to build a city. Obviously they would be disadvantaged to some extent as settled civs would have a greater research power. The reason I suggest this is certain of the european "barbarian" (ie non-roman) tribes made some very sophisticated jewelry etc.. without any buidings, they just took their tools with them.

I think this would be the best solution.

The only thing that causes a problem is that you need a city to build units, unless you can think of a way round this. Maybe the first settler is in fact a unique unit that cannot be rebuilt later. He carries the name of your tribe as his title, looks like romany or similar caravans, and can roduce basic units such as warriors workers and settlers.

He would also be able to be loaded with a set amount of units so as to remove the prolem of fortifying units only to have the city move from under their feet.
 
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