The Pyramids and City Growth

[Biologic]

Considering the way you can use WLTD under Republic or Democracy are the pyramids really that useful? To be honest I think I would rather go with the oracle and set up my main 7-8 citys to boost up to 12 pop. Of course once you have hit Democracy you can then attain maximum city sizes.

What do you think?

There has probably been a discussion about the Pyramids before but I would not know as I am new to the forums. I would be grateful for anyone pointing me in the right direction.

 

[Old n Slow]

I’m still hemming & hawing -- I think that the Pyramids do have value (especially for sloppy players like me) in getting to the magic size three. I think that Starlifter & a few others quick start their cities with extra settlers or engineers, but by that stage of the game, they should have the Pyramids as well.

Right now, I value the Pyramids as the third or fourth ancient Wonder of choice, depending upon the game level. At Prince & below, I can sometimes build them all, at King, I’m looking at a choice of four or five ancients & can probably get the rest. so for me, I’ll opt for Colossus first, try for the Hanging Gardens in my SSC if I’ve acquired Pottery by then (not on my early list of techs), Pyramids might be third. Often, I’ll build them because I’m feeling greedy, just as often, I’ll let them go because Marco’s can be put together & that is higher on my to-do list.

I’m only a middling player, so expect different answers from other levels of players.

 

[Titi]

Pyramids are always my first wonder, because it counts as a granary in every town.
But I need to explain also that my luxury is always set at 0 % : I used to think that I couldn't afford to "lose" gold (for subverting enemy cities) and science (it's easier to win when you're far ahead in science, at least in my way of playing).
However, I have to build temples and all other improvements to reduce unhappiness.

I'm rather new in CFC (even though I've been playing civilization since Civ I), and now I've (re)discovered the interest of having the WLTP celebrations while reading Civ 2 forums...

I'll soon try new games with luxury set higher than 0 (and maybe compare how they end compared to the same games with 0 luxury...)

 

[ferenginar]

I am in favour of Pyramids as it certainly aids in city growth throughout the game rather that a reliance on bursts of WLT*days. However the early growth came be a problem for happiness on the higher levels, so it makes sense to go for the oracle alongside.

ferenginar 83

 

[Xin Yu]

Sometimes Pyramid is on the top of the wonder list, sometimes not. It really depends on the situation.

Let's say after started for a couple of turns you realize that you are an isolated civ on a mid sized island. Then by all means build the Pyramids. This is because that you'll have enough room to build about 10 cities, but no more. So you want to have them big as soon as possible. Happiness is manageable if you don't build too many cities, that pushes HG to the second place.

Now if the island is smaller, only able to hold 5 cities. Then you should build the LightHouse -- it will be hopeless if you can't get out of there.

What if you are in a big continent and can put down as many cities as you can? Then build Hanging Garden since without it by the time you put down your 20th city your cities will be in chaos.

 

[KingWilly]

Personally, I like the Pyramids (especially on the lower-mid levels) as the growth of cities is important early. If you can get ahead early, you should be able to keep up your lead for the remainder of the game.

But (as mentioned by Xin Yu) it all depends on the circumstances of the game. Certain situations call for different strategies (such as the small island - lighthouse situation)

Pyramids can also be a problem on higher levels (quicker growth = quicker to unhappiness), which would make people wary of building them, especially when there are other options.

On the matter of the Oracle, I'd rather build the Hanging Gardens.

 

[Hawkster]

pyramids are a must for me - first wonder I go for - I also try and get oracle and great library early too.

These three help me a lot in getting a decent level of growth and development so I can concentrate on building up a decent empire.

I will often try and get king richard's crusade (does anybody else bother with it?) to get one city really building then rush for Leonadros.

 

[Ace]

Pyramids or Hanging Gardens? They are both important. HG makes unhappiness a non-problem early in the game, but Pyramids increases city growth. In the ideal situation, I build both, but if I have to choose one or the other, I will pick the Pyramids! Unhappiness can be dealt with, but small cities just do not produce as much as bigger cities. There is no point in having a city with 3 or 4 special resourse hexes, if you do not have the citizens to work them! Plus, just when you really need it, the HG expires.

 

[Old n Slow]

Now it is a classic question -- quantity or quality. Xin Yu has taken the question one step farther -- what is the relative value of growth? When growth is limited by geography (small isle -- 5 cities), then true growth is better served by removing the obstical -- hence the LH recommendation. Similarly, at a diety level, the extra citizens generated too soon may be unproductive or disruptive also slowing additional growth -- hence HG.

I read Biologic's question a little differently. I interpret the question as being from a middling point of view, as opposed to newbie or advanced. For a newbie, playing at Warlord, challenged at Prince, go for the Pyamids all the time -- learn to make the tough choices elsewhere, this one is easy. for the advanced folks, you already know the answers & my advice is inappropriate.

For the middling player, I see the question as something like, "OK, I know about the Colossus & the SSC, and I think I can snag a second 200 shield wonder before they are all gone. I know the value of LH on a small isle but there are two questions here: 1) over the long haul, will Pyramids add to more growth than the Gardens with WLTC days? and 2) with WTHC days, will the Pyramids be worth that early investment of 200 shields?"

The best players have already begun to answer -- it depends and it depends. (Both of the above questions depend upon the geography, game level, and your playing style.) But I am going to risk it and answer a little farther -- making assumptions as to your playing style, in most game situations, yes and yes.

 

[Ace]

It looks like this is a yes answer to an "either or" question!

 

[Old n Slow]

My assessment is that a mid level player will see more growth with HG and WLTC activity than Pyramids (no HG) and WLTC. Also, I believe that if you can grab HG (and Col), having the Pyramids will be worth it: 1) bringing cities up to size three for WLTC, and 2) the era of Monarchy before Republic & Democracy.

So yes, the Pyramids are worth the investment (for a mid level player) even if you plan to exploit WLTC with Republic/Democracy.

 

[starlifter]

For me, the Pyramids are one of the most valuable wonders in the game. They don't always get top priority from the start, because it is not essential to have them in a certain city, like Colossus.. and to a lesser extent HG... are. Whoever builds them (if I can't) will expect a visit from a Diplomat (if they are not in a capital), or an invasion if they are in an AI capital. I will have them, and I will not wait until endgame. It costs too darned much to start rushing Granaries in new cities, and I am certainly not going to let cities grow past size one without the line... starting about 1 AD or so.

I know there are a lot of ways to play the game, but I never worry about getting unhappiness with growth.... I worry about not growing FAST enough. I can never grow too fast. It is impossible to grow too fast. Fast growth means more resurces, and if people don't already know, the idea is to take what you got, and figure the fastest way to get a good return on it. Pyramids are one of the best ways to do that.

Like anything, there is no one, single, magic secret. When you have to, let the AI build the Pyramids, and then go get them. Do not pass up the Colossus, though. The Hanging Gardens are nice, but few people really take advantage of what they can do for you (early Republic). The power of HG is in ICS or ER... and ER is helped by MC. If you are able to get Col+HG in one city, you will usually have to let the Pyramids slide... but if you use the Col+HG right, the result will fund the expedition to get the Pyramids later.

Food is the most difficult thing to make in Civ 2. But if you got it, you can convert it to gold or science by micromanagement. However, the key is to get that reserve to begin with. You will win either way, but If you are not in a Celebrating Republic, you'd better buy granaries (have a strong economy!) or get the Pyramids... if you wanna get powerful quick.

 

[AnarchyBoy]

The best wonders are the "counts as a ... in every city" ones. For example, a granary costs 1 gold per turn. If you build 20 cities with granaries, that's 20 gold per turn being saved by the pyramids. Building Michaelangelo's or Hoover Dam saves you even more gold!

 

[funxus]

In my last game I didn't build one single granary, the only ones I have are those in the captured cities. I rather spend the time before the city reach size three on building marketplaces and harbors, which will get my city up to 8 in a few turns after the city reached 3.

 

[ElephantU]

Pyramids are one of the first the AI will go for early in the game, and I am usually going for Colossus or MarcoPolo, followed by Mikes Chapel. So often I have to let it go. My SSC will get a Granary ASAP, if I am not going for Early Republic. Like Starlifter, I'll go after it in mid-game to help smaller cities along. If I cannot get it I'll build Granaries selectively till I can WLTC, then sell them for gold.

 

[Dark Ascendant]

The pyramids promote fast growth and saves resources. I try to build it before anyone else. It's not that important if I can get Adam Smith, but it's great for staving off famines.

 

[yaroslav]

As Old n Slow have pointed, the answer can be 'yes' or 'no', deppends of the game. But my general answer is not, because I play at Deity Level (both Single and Multiplayer), and on Deity Level the Pyramids generate too many unhappy citiziens. GH are much better on many of my deity games.

But in my first years of Civilization, when I play at King level, Pyramids was always a must