The religions in this game

[Bei1052]

...Are out of whack.

I know I'm probably nitpicking over nothing, but Confucianism and Taoism come way too late compared to the other religions (Unless you get them via the Oracle/bulb them) and Christianity should have Philosophy and a prerequisite. The way I see it, both writing and CoL should be a direct prerequisite to priesthood, instead of priesthood indirectly leading to writing and CoL (In other words, writing should be where priesthood is currently; CoL should be where writing is currently; and priesthood should be where CoL is currently). Next, philosophy should come between monotheism and theology, as theology is most often associated with Christianity, and Christian theology only arose from Greco-Roman philosophy (Or, at the very least, was heavily influenced by the ideas of some classical era philosophers, such as Aristotle and his ideas of the unmoved mover and the immortality of the soul).

Therefore, with the choose religion option turned off, you should see the religions founded in this order:

Buddhism/Hinduism
Judaism
Confucianism
Taoism
Christianity
Islam

By no means perfect, but it makes a bit more sense to me. Thoughts?

(I know I'm being anal.)

 

[oilnwater]

i guess you seem to be more accurate here in chronology and general tech suggestions aimed at religion. however, it is also important to understand that 1) it's a game designed to gameplay first and foremost, 2) they're game developers, not avid Thomas Aquinas, Aristotle, Abu Bakr scholars, and 3) the tech tree re-arrangement might cause more problems than it solves the religion chronology problem.

overall, i think religions were a super-fantastic addition to civ. no doubt it will be more unwrinkled in V.

 

[bippukt]

There is one thing that could definitely have been more accurately designed in the game regarding the religions. In almost all the games, Buddhism is founded before Hinduism which is just plain non-sense. Hinduism was "founded" way earlier than Buddhism.

 

[Joecoolyo]

There is one thing that could definitely have been more accurately designed in the game regarding the religions. In almost all the games, Buddhism is founded before Hinduism which is just plain non-sense. Hinduism was "founded" way earlier than Buddhism.

LOL, Buddhism is based off of Hinduism, that makes it pretty much impossible for Buddhism to be founded before Hinduism...

 

[bippukt]

LOL, Buddhism is based off of Hinduism, that makes it pretty much impossible for Buddhism to be founded before Hinduism...

Yup, Budhha was a Hindu before he founded Budhhism. Perhaps that's one of the reasons that the coexist relatively peacefully.

 

[Warlord Mike]

In a game where America is founded before the birth of Christ, Vikings travel to the stars in a space ship (SG doesn't count here) and Islam is discovered in London, I doubt the historical accuracy in the order in which religions are founded is something of a moot point.

 

[bippukt]

Well, you don't discover flight and then oil and then the wheel or whatever.

The point is that the way the designers have control over historical accuracy without compromising on the gameplay is via the tech tree. They could have easily implemented the tech tree in such a way that Hinduism would normally (or even always) founded before Buddhism. Look up how the Rhye's mod does this. I am not too upset about all this because in the end it is a game, but since this thread is discussing religions, it isn't a moot point at all.

 

[Warlord Mike]

(moot means open to discussion, but no longer practically applicable)

Actually, yes, I agree, it would've been relatively easy for the developers to ensure the religions are founded in the "correct" order, but my point is that Civ's idea (at least one of them) is to make your own world history, so to speak. Due to this the importance of the order is, in my mind at least, diminished. Also, there's very much the possibility of founding Hinduism before Buddhism (it's just that there's always one AI with Mysticism who jumps at the chance of Buddhahood). To summarize: the point of Civilization IV isn't historical accuracy. In a game like Total War (though it doesn't feature founding religions) this kind of correctness would be more important due to the historical nature of the game.

Look at this way: in real life the Indians just researched Polytheism before Meditation

 

[bippukt]

Well, let's not argue too much about semantics...this isn't a total realism mod after all. BTW, how can you say that the Indians researched Polytheism before Meditation? Hinduism is so old that AFAIK no one knows the true historical origins of it. Perhaps they first meditated and then decided to worship millions of gods? It being so old is probably the reason that Hinduism is Polytheistic.

BTW, how come Kashi Vishwanath is the Hindu holy shrine? *more fuel into the fire*

 

[FlyinJohnnyL]

You're missing the whole point here, bippukt. They wanted those with Myst to have a shot at 2 religions, otherwise Hindu would take over the world quick since a zealot would get it 9/10. Now, with 2 zealots with quick religions, you hopefully have at least 2 factions. It's all about gameplay.

 

[bippukt]

You're missing the whole point here, bippukt. They wanted those with Myst to have a shot at 2 religions, otherwise Hindu would take over the world quick since a zealot would get it 9/10. Now, with 2 zealots with quick religions, you hopefully have at least 2 factions. It's all about gameplay.

I understand what you are saying but it seems to me that I have not made myself clear. I am just saying that the techs could have been easily arranged so that Hinduism was founded before Buddhism, without making sure that the world descends into a Hindu love fest because of a zealot like Isabella (also making sure that the one who gets Hinduism doesn't always get Buddhism as well). That's all that I am saying.

That said, the current settings also make for good gameplay. When I say that Buddhism before Hinduism doesn't make sense, I am of course talking about historical accuracy only. It wouldn't have taken too much effort to ensure that this happens:

1. Most of the time - by making polytheism cheaper than meditation.

2. Always - by making the Hinduism tech a prerequisite for the Buddhism tech. Although there will have to be some way to ensure that both of them don't end up being founded by the same civ most of the time.

 

[Zeiter]

Yeah, simply making meditation cost a little bit more than Polytheism, or switching the places of the two techs in the tech tree and swapping the costs, that would be enough to solve this problem 99% of the time. I hardly ever see Hinduism founded before Buddhism as it is, so it stands to reason that if you just switched them around, you'd hardly ever see Buddhism founded before Hinduism.

I don't think one should be the pre-requisite for the other, though, because then that would give one civ with both most of the time.

Alternatively, more radically, one could switch the places of Judaism and Buddhism. Make Polytheism and Monotheism the two starting religions. That would be more historically accurate actually (Judaism has been around since 2000 B.C.E., whereas Buddhism was started around like the fourth century B.C.E.) I don't think it would alter gameplay in any bad way either.

 

[bippukt]

Yeah, simply making meditation cost a little bit more than Polytheism, or switching the places of the two techs in the tech tree and swapping the costs, that would be enough to solve this problem 99% of the time. I hardly ever see Hinduism founded before Buddhism as it is, so it stands to reason that if you just switched them around, you'd hardly ever see Buddhism founded before Hinduism.

You understood what I wanted to say

Alternatively, more radically, one could switch the places of Judaism and Buddhism. Make Polytheism and Monotheism the two starting religions. That would be more historically accurate actually (Judaism has been around since 2000 B.C.E., whereas Buddhism was started around like the fourth century B.C.E.) I don't think it would alter gameplay in any bad way either.

I am not sure about the origins of Judaism, but if what you are saying is true, then this would indeed have been the wiser course of action

 

[Supr49er]

You can always play with the Custom Game option 'Choose Religions and make your own order.

 

[bippukt]

Of course, but that's beside the topic of this discussion (and I don't think that it is available in vanilla or warlords)

BTW, I beat you in welcoming a new member today

 

[Joecoolyo]

I am not sure about the origins of Judaism, but if what you are saying is true, then this would indeed have been the wiser course of action

Yeah dude, my people have been around for a long time. Abraham, the founder of Judaism was born in the city-state of Ur in Sumeria, and of course decided there was only one god and wandered to Canaan (Israel) to start his family and thus a Jewish population. So yeah, 2000 B.C. sounds right, we've been here since practically the beginning of civilization

 

[Bei1052]

In a game where America is founded before the birth of Christ, Vikings travel to the stars in a space ship (SG doesn't count here) and Islam is discovered in London, I doubt the historical accuracy in the order in which religions are founded is something of a moot point.

I realize that Civilization is just a game and the religions being out of whack in the order they are generally founded is nothing major or game changing. However, it's just something that annoys me, similar to how you can research computers before you discover aluminum or plastics on Warlords, which is fixed on BtS.

 

[Yngvi]

I like using JARM; that allows Voodoo to be founded in Japan in 3500BCE!
Why? Because arguing about this can get nowhere: Historically, Judaism as we recognize it only existed from the Babylonian captivity. Jewish tradition talks about Abraham and 2000 BCE. Historically, Islam goes back to the 7th century. If we follow Islamic tradition, Abraham (and Adam) were good Muslims. For them, Islam is oldest. Historically, Buddhism goes back to roughly 500 BCE. If we follow Buddhist tradition Buddhas have been appearing for eons, over and over again.
That is why I like founding Voodoo in Japan in 3500 BCE.

 

[Lemon Merchant]

IMHO, it doesn't matter who founds what religion when or where. It's just a game, and historical accuracy has never been a feature of Civ.

But the best part is that there are seven religions, and no one of them is any better than another. No one gets bonuses for Hinduism over Buddhism or anything like that. It gives the sense of equality and tolerance because each religion is treated with respect. How you use them is up to you. (Note I avoid the topic of the resulting "Religious War" that crops up in every game.)

In the Theocratic/Police State household I grew up in, Christianity was the only religion, and the concept was rigidly enforced. Well, it isn't the only one. Other cultures have their own, each as meaningful to them as yours is to you. No one's religion is better, no one's religion is more right than someone else's. I think that is what Firaxis is trying to convey here, and that's terrific.

It isn't the fact that you can found the religions out of order that matters. It isn't even important. What matters is that they are all there.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

Hey Lemon growing up in a Police State household isn't too bad, as long as your city has a barracks you get 2 happy.

EDIT: Whoops, that's Nationalism Never mind then