The remaining Civ
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Pangur Bán
Deconstructed
Homer is even more vague than Herodotus, but Abyssinia is essentially an irrelevance to the name Ethiopia. Herodotus doesn't actually use it to describe only Nubia and "Ethiopia", but West Africa too. Calling Abyssinia Ethiopia is like calling Greece Europe. The idea that Ethiopia referred to "Abyssinia" in particular, is pure fiction, and it wouldn't even be a possible argument to make had not one modern African state hijacked the name.
Herodotus said that Ethiopia strecthed from the red sea to India. At that time, Yemen was a part of "Abyssinia." He said nothing about West Africa. Plus, Ethiopia didn't "hijack" the name, it has been used to refer to "Abyssinia" for quite a long time.
Anyway, the name is not the point. I'm just saying that Ethiopia should be one of the new civilizations in C3C. And I think it actually is. I was searching for something on ethiopia this summer and found a page that had a page filled with Stuff on Ethiopia in a Civ3 style (i.e. leader name, city list, leaders, traits, etc.)
http://de.geocities.com/wernazuma/ethiopianciv.htm is the site, I'm not sure if it's real, but it sure seems like it. It has some mistakes on Ethiopia's origin though. For instance, the idea that Ethiopians came from southern Arabia has since been refuted and instead, the theory is that the two cultures were one in the same that developed together on both sides of the Red Sea.
The home page is http://de.geocities.com/wernazuma/english.htm but it seems as if it might be just an expansion he's making for ptw.
The home page is http://de.geocities.com/wernazuma/english.htm but it seems as if it might be just an expansion he's making for ptw.
Pangur Bán
Deconstructed
Since when?
Forgive my arrogance please, but I don't think you are correct about Herodotus.
1) Herodotus used the term "Red Sea" to refer to the Indian Ocean. Please, give me a reference on that,
2) Herodotus says that there are two peoples who are native to "Africa" (not the term he used, he's just talking about the area around Cyrene), the Libyans and the Ethiopians. The Libyans, in case you don't know, were all the people inhabiting nothern "Africa", from the western borders of Egypt to the Pillars of Hercules. He defines the Ethiopians, as living to the south of the Libyans. (Book II, 197-8). That area, my friend, refers to Africa west of Abyssinia - although he does also call Abyssinians Ethiopians!
Herodotus has the term to mean merely, then, Sub-Saharan Africa.I can't find any instance where he says that Indians are Ethiopians, as the early Greeks would have called them. You'll have to help me here!
Pangur Bán
Deconstructed
The guy who wrote that site, goes around here by the name of Nahuixtelotzin. I don't want to criticise him too much, 'cause he's a good guy, but his write up there has no authority, and it doesn't contradict me either!
the site isn't about the name Ethiopia, it was about what the next civ for Conquests was gonna be. At first sight I thought it was by Conquests since I found it by accident just randomly searching. But in hindsight it's just an expansion pack he's making, so you can just disregard it.
Pangur Bán
Deconstructed
OK
I didn't say he used the Red sea to refer to the indian ocean, read what I said again. Also, Herodotus often made references between the two peoples, citing their similar appearances (dark skin and wooly hair).
Quote:
Herodotus says "there were two Ethiopian nations. One in India and the other in Egypt."
Obviously by Egypt he meant Africa. If you search for: Herodotus Ethiopia India, you will find many sites that support what I said.
Quote:
Herodotus says "there were two Ethiopian nations. One in India and the other in Egypt."
Obviously by Egypt he meant Africa. If you search for: Herodotus Ethiopia India, you will find many sites that support what I said.
Pangur Bán
Deconstructed
Careful there...you've misunderstood. I wasn't saying that you did say this, I was saying that what Herodotus means by the Red Sea is the Indian Ocean. This made your claim quite strange to me, which is why I mentioned it
I'm not saying that Ethiopia wasn't used in ancient times to refer to the whole of Africa, but it was also used to refer to Nubia and "Abyssinia" specifically. Anyway, the main argument in this forum isn't what the civ should be called, but rather, which civilization should be included in Civ3 Conquests.
Pangur Bán
Deconstructed
No it wasn't! It was never used in this way, except in the way that Greeks called their own land "Europe" . But this could equally be done for any other part of Sub-Sahran Africa. It's very important that you understand this. It was never used to mean all of Africa either (of that, there is no instance), but the vague "Land of the Blacks" to the south of both Libya and Egypt!
Oh, yeah, I'm sure we'll get back to that soon!
Originally posted by calgacus
2) Herodotus says that there are two peoples who are native to "Africa" (not the term he used, he's just talking about the area around Cyrene), the Libyans and the Ethiopians. The Libyans, in case you don't know, were all the people inhabiting nothern "Africa", from the western borders of Egypt to the Pillars of Hercules. He defines the Ethiopians, as living to the south of the Libyans. (Book II, 197-8). That area, my friend, refers to Africa west of Abyssinia - although he does also call Abyssinians Ethiopians!
I am fairly sure that Ethiopia was first used to refer to the Nubians and Cu****es as they, were known before other parts of sub-saharan africa, "Abyssinia" was also refered to as "Ethiopia" during the early A.D. times as well, so it wouldn't be accurate to say that a modern nation "hijacked it," as "Abyssinia" has been called Ethiopia for a long time, and has been in existence for millenia (thus you can't say it's just some modern state that adopted the name).
Also, by Africa, I mean lands inhabited by blacks. At that time, that didn't refer much more than Nubia and Abyssinia since there wasn't contact with the rest of Africa. If they were aware of the rest of Africa, howver, it would have probably been refered to as Ethiopia.
Edit: lol, it bleeped out "Cush- ites"
Pangur Bán
Deconstructed
YEAh...I think we've both said enough on this; there is little more either of us can say. I'd just urge you to think of Ethiopia as being a vague term like Europe (to the ancients that is).
We should reallly let this get back on topic. Although, doubtless someone will come on and repeat some arguments
yeah...that argument was kinda pointless, as I don't really care what they call it, as long as there's an Ethiopian/Abyssinian/Axumite civilization in Conquests. Ethiopia is, however, a very old civilization, and was an important military power and trading power. It was considered one of the four major nations of the ancient world by the Persians (the persians, chinese and romans being the other 3), and has a rich culture. Furthermore, Civilization is really lacking in African civs; therefore, Ethiopia/Abyssinia/Axumite Empire should be the last Conquests civ.
Pangur Bán
Deconstructed
Ah, back on topic then 
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