The return of the killer Phalanx

Good point. I thought about this on the drive home from work since my last post. A group of spear guys killing a bunch of tanks 10 or 20 per cent of the time is un-realistic. While it is true that pikemen are a defensive unit they were deisgned to defend against horses by impaling the horse or the rider on the pike. Their added defensive capabilty disappears against tanks. (Imagine a pikeman impaling a tank and you get the picture.) Even against a guy on a horse a pikeman is at a disadvantage if the rider has a bow or (god-forbid) a gun. This thread has mostly been about pikemen versus tanks but look at pikemen versus calvary (which I assume have guns)!

The whole defense/attack factor thing in a turn based game leads to other un-realistic battle outcomes as well. Consider tanks against tanks in the desert. If the tanks all have the same attack and defence factors I would think the battle would be evenly matched no matter which ones attack. The only advantage the attackers could really gain here is through surprise. Merely attacking does not guarantee surprise. If the battling units are equally matched and there is no surprise factor then luck - or superiour numbers - should determine the outcome.

One more scenario to consider: archers against pikemen. If the pikemen are going to stay in their defensive posture the bowmen can just stay back and shoot them full of arrows to their hearts content without taking any hits at all. For the pikemen to do any damage at all they have to run after the archers and in doing so don't they become the attackers?

Well, I don't have the game yet so I'm not sure how combat works and we must keep in mind that some level of reality must be sacrificed for playability.

There's an easy solution to this problem anyway. Just save those old catapults for a rainy day. If your tanks come across any cities defended by elite pikemen or hoplites you can clear out the pesky things with your trusty catapults then when the city is undefended roll your tanks in. Don't forget to have the tv crews standing by for that!:goodjob:
 
Originally posted by donsig
This thread has mostly been about pikemen versus tanks but look at pikemen versus calvary (which I assume have guns)!

I don't think I'd want to look at pikemen versus Calvary, but you're right, they would be pretty defensless after being crucified! BTW, why do you assume they have guns back around the time of the early Roman Empire?
I bet cavalry might be a deadly foe for pikemen as well. :D

On Topic: I think that it won't be as easy as it sounds for pikemen to defeat tanks while on the defense. There were many things that went on behind the scenes in Civ 2 that were never talked about in the manual or anything, and were not discovered by us gamers until a while after the game was released. This may be something similar.
 
I found this paragraph in the Avault review pretty interesting

"This brings me to the negative aspects of Civilization III's gameplay, and unfortunately there are many. For starters, a number of units -- mostly those in the Modern era -- are either underbalanced or unrealistic in their lack of potential. For instance, while relocating a Cruise Missile to one of my other cities, it happened to stop accidentally in an open tile. During the enemy's turn, an Archer shot down my Cruise Missile, instantly destroying it. Just how an Ancient era Archer is capable of hitting a Cruise Missile moving at 300+ MPH and destroying it with an arrow is beyond me. Unfortunately this trend continues with other units; as experienced Civilization players recall, it was sometimes possible for a Phalanx to destroy a Battleship in prior titles. This is no longer possible in Civilization III, since sea units (like those in the air) can now only bombard ground targets. However, it is possible for Mechanized Infantry (the best defensive unit) to be destroyed quite easily by an Ancient Swordsman (an attack rating of 3 vs. a defense rating of 18, in case you were wondering). Allowing for some random chance, as the manual states will happen, such cases should really only occur once in a great while, but unfortunately, they happen routinely."
 
Since when do cruise missiles get relocated at 300mph? I think mostly they get ground trasnported and if your truck gets ambushed... so be it- be MORE CAREFUL next time- the guy deserved to lose that unit.

And as for the rest of his assertions, those deals never happened routinely to me- and on the rare occasions Ilose a tank to a phalanx on open ground I chock it up the heroics of the other side- some interesting story behind the encounter that led to it... sheesh...
 
I don't think I'd want to look at pikemen versus Calvary, but you're right, they would be pretty defensless after being crucified! BTW, why do you assume they have guns back around the time of the early Roman Empire?

My assumption is based on the fact that calvary in Civ III (and Civ II) are available after gunpowder. In Civ II the calvary unit reminds me of the 7th Calvary of the old American West. Can you imagine Sioux pikemen against them!:D

In Civ terms Roman Empire era calvary would be horsemen - a unit the pikemen could realisticaly defend against.

However, it is possible for Mechanized Infantry (the best defensive unit) to be destroyed quite easily by an Ancient Swordsman (an attack rating of 3 vs. a defense rating of 18, in case you were wondering).

:eek:
 
All this talk about silly combat and I was a justa thinking cant we just change the rules.txt to make units more powerful?

Im sure I once changed it in Civ II where I just increased the units values by a certain percentage as I got pissed off with muskets putting up a good fight against tanks sometimes.

Is this possibly a solution???
 
Originally posted by Knigget


Wrong

The way it worked in civ2 was: 3+(100%+50%) = 7.5

Also in civ2 there was no fortification bonus behind city walls and in forts.

Just to say, what I understand is, that city walls give +50% defence bonus for units in the city.:o
And so do the forts.
 
Originally posted by Dearmad
Since when do cruise missiles get relocated at 300mph? I think mostly they get ground trasnported and if your truck gets ambushed... so be it- be MORE CAREFUL next time- the guy deserved to lose that unit.

And as for the rest of his assertions, those deals never happened routinely to me- and on the rare occasions Ilose a tank to a phalanx on open ground I chock it up the heroics of the other side- some interesting story behind the encounter that led to it... sheesh...

I agree wholehartedly: Lets use a little imagination: Once in awhile incompetent tank commanders will have their supply lines cut, run out of gas, ammo, parts, etc, leaving them vulnerable to a bunch of thugs with spears. Also imagine that a really backward civ still has phalanxes defending their cities in the 20th century. Perhaps one or two soldiers somehow obtained an antitank mine, or a grenade, perhaps off a killed ennemy soldier...

The point is that war will yield its share of surprises, like it or not... And as long as they dont occur too often, that should be part of the gaming experience, too.

:cool:
 
Think of the Russo-Afghan war. The Afghan horsemen armed with nothing but spears simply rode up to the tanks and captured them.
 
Mozenwrath - That is a falicy.

The Afghans were armed by the CIA with Soviet-style modern weapons. And they ambushed Russian tank columns from high up on the side of mountains.

There were no "Mongol-style" horse charges.:lol:
 
True, but there was at least one instance of the Afghanis destroying a Soviet helicopter in flight by rolling a boulder over a cliff and having it landing on the helicopter! :eek:
 
donsig, you'll understand what I meant in my previous post by looking up the definitions of "calvary" vs. "cavalry"
 
Hey Apollo, you're not taking advantage of my bad spelling to make bad jokes are you?:D
 
"Sir, how is the attack on Washington going?"

"I'm afraid I have bad news. Several individuals in our tank corps
were murdered by soldiers bearing Swords and shields."

"My goodness! How are they doing it?"

"It seems they caught several members using the latrine."

"Ohhh, all is good then. Carry on."
 
Originally posted by D_L_26
They could get on top of the Tank and rip open the hatch and kill everyone inside, therefore taking over the tank!!!! ADVANTAGE PHALANX BABY :slay:

Half-naked men with spears versus 50+ ton Tiger Tank MkII?

ADVANTAGE PANZER MEN, ACHTUNG BABY!:lol:
 
Oh by the way, has anybody read Harry Turtledove's Guns of the South? It features time travellers giving the Confederates AK47s :ak47:, the Confederates in maybe a month were in Washington D.C. (this was even after Gettysburg), aided by grenade launchers to smash fortifications. The technology differences between a Tank and a Swordsmen would be infinitely greater, this is really unrealistic. I will edit it if it is bad.
 
Originally posted by D_L_26
Oh by the way, has anybody read Harry Turtledove's Guns of the South? It features time travellers giving the Confederates AK47s :ak47:, the Confederates in maybe a month were in Washington D.C. (this was even after Gettysburg), aided by grenade launchers to smash fortifications. The technology differences between a Tank and a Swordsmen would be infinitely greater, this is really unrealistic. I will edit it if it is bad.

Turtledove is a great author,

World War and his alternate WW1 series are cool!

Excellent CIV scenario ideas also!!!
 
Originally posted by CurtSibling


Turtledove is a great author,

World War and his alternate WW1 series are cool!

Excellent CIV scenario ideas also!!!

I know, I love the way he writes, if only he could cut out the needless sex scenes. I am right in the middle of both the Great War and Worldwar Series.
 
Originally posted by D_L_26


I know, I love the way he writes, if only he could cut out the needless sex scenes. I am right in the middle of both the Great War and Worldwar Series.

I know what ya mean!
MAKE WAR NOT LOVE! (WELL WAR FIRST ANYWAY!)

Enjoy the books!
They are cool!
 
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